Stereophile quotation

[chadnliz]

This is some more reverse snobbery? There is an awful lot of that here. I don't know which is worse, the your gear didn't cost enough bunch or, the no gear is worth that much bunch.

Why is it such a big deal what someone else spends or doesn't spend on their gear?

I don't hear people complaining about the cost of a Maybach, Porsche, Lamborghini or Ferrari by comparing the cost with a Ford Focus

I don't hear people complaining about the cost of a Nikon or a Hasselblad by comparing the cost with a disposable.

Expensive watches should be in the same catagory. I never hear people complaining about the cost of a Rolex or Patek Phillippe compared to a Timex.

The complaints about high prices for high end gear are very prevalent here. Why all the sour grapes? Why do so many posters here have a bug up their butt's about what others can and do spend on audio gear? Too many people here are what we in the inner city call "haters".

This should be a sticky!
Smoke em' if ya got em' and buy em' if you can afford em'............afterall a good bit of those who bash the expensive gear would own it if they could afford it.

 

[zombie1210]

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

Thomas Tusser

 

[blackfly]

Of course, that raises a question - is all of that super-high-precision machining really necessary, or is it just there for the joint purposes of looking good and bragging rights? The automotive world is full of parts (often machined from billets of aluminum) that look wonderful but offer no performance benefit (and sometimes don't perform as well) as their more mundane counterparts. Yes, looking pretty can be a purpose into it's own right, but personally I'm more concerned with function in most instances.

I know a fair bit about machining.

It is the best way to engineer a piece that is purpose built but including strength or design. Forging is okay but for the Magico baffle not possible. Moreover on economies of scale, machining is the only way to go. The reason for the machining is Alon Wolf believes the best way to mount the cones is on a rigid baffle and aluminum allows more torque for the bolts than does MDF.

But do not think the machined baffle is merely an excercise in "overthetopmanship". There is no other way to achive, with the M5, the result Alon wants any other way.

And from all the reports, the results are successful.

 

[JohnVF]

Magico is a rare exception to the high end, and I am one who believes in the products they make and, with a little forturne, could see me owning them in the future.

CNC machining the front baffle is not cheap, nor are the crossovers used in the Magico line. You get what you pay for.

But I am also a regular reader of Stereophile and The Absolute Sound and wholeheartedly agree that the high end, past a certain point, is totally ridiculous. For example, take my amplifier brand, Bryston.

Their top model, the 1000w 28B is about as good as solid state amps get. There is not a speaker made it cannot drive with ease. A pair, retail, is $16000. High, but consider Lamm audio makes amps in the $100K mark, as does Soulution. Are they better than the Bryston? Some think so, but after hearing what Bryston is all about I am convinced the highest end exists only as an exercise in profiteering with offering little if any improvement. Amps especially are tough to prove as really nothing NEW is realized. I would venture however that this is not always the case with speakers. The aforementioned Magico company makes a new model, the M5 that is about $90K and is a tour de force in speaker design and quality. Given fortune I would, without hesitation, buy them. The amps of course would be the Bryston 28B (get the feeling I have thought this out? Whatever gave you that idea)

Even more absurd is the cost of high end cables, where some preport the cost of R+D account for the cost.

But PT Barnum is not quoted for nothing.

I think the law of diminishing returns is hit pretty early in audio, but then we all have egos to stroke, pride to swell, and bragging rights to uphold. Funny in all of this there is no mention of better sound or true evolution in music reproduction at a time it needs it the most.

You could drive the Magicos with what they apparently use in their shop...the very affordable Odyssey Audio Khartago, which The Absolute Sound favorably compared to an amp costing over $100,000. Yes, they actually wrote an article favorably comparing a $1000 amp with one that costs ten times as much. I'm going to buy one at some point, or the Stratos above it.

Both of these magazines often call out products that cost an obscene amount of money. Art Dudley does so quite often in Stereophile, but at the same time, they don't call out ALL expensive components, just those that deserve it. Dudley also runs a restored Thorens TD-124, and wrote about his coming to terms with it's performance compared to some much higher priced, new, esoteric gear.

 

[richamor]

It would seem that one of the things being overlooked is time. These mega-buck items, whether it be cars, stereo, watches, machines, etc take a huge amount of man-hours to custom build. That costs money, any lots of it. Often it's short-term borrowed money that must be repaid upon sale, with the interest. That has to be figured into the cost. Overhead, such as CNC Machining centers ARE NOT cheap. A 5-axis could get into 6 figures. Time on one isn't cheap to rent. Programming can be the Achilles heel and if you can't write your own, programmers like to be well paid.
My point is that mega-buck "?????" likely cost big bucks to build. The folks that do this work are talented craftsman, sometimes extraordinarily so, being given a job. And if it happens to be here in the US, all the better.
I represent a very small English CNC machine builder. All of our machines are single purpose, custom built, one off units designed for a specific purpose. They are not cheap and lead times can run 12 months or more. I've watched a fitter hand scrap one square foot of cast iron for days to get it perfect. Not just good, or OK, or that'll do. Perfect as in laser auto-collomated perfect to within a couple of microns.
And he's just one of an entire team tasked to build the machine.
The profit margin is , I doubt, what you think it is. Most people are surprised when they find out.
My point is this; You can throw all the money you want at anything you can think of and someone will come along to satisfy your needs. If you want custom, it's gonna cost. How custom depends on how much you got to throw. Does it make it better??? In some ways, yes. Certainly in build quality a huge improvement is to be expected. Performance?? No real answer there, at least in my view. What is an amazing revelation to you may out me to sleep. Your Ulysse Nardin keeps time just like my Timex does. Is yours nicer? Yes. Better? Not to me. Hell, my Timex may even keep better time. Would I own a Ulysse if I could afford it? Oh YEAH! Am I sad because I don't/can't? Not in the least. I am happy with what I have. And that in itself brings me joy. My wife has spent the better part of her life teaching me that one lesson.
And if I had the funds, I would sit down with an engineering team in my house and develop a sound that suits ME and have everything custom built to that end, from the first input jack to the last soundwave would be tailor-made for ME.
And please accept my apologies if ANY of this is taken in the negative. It's not meant to be. Be happy with what you have, and be happy for others for what they can have.

 

[blackfly]

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

Thomas Tusser

I would agree with you but as I trek through life I have met MANY wealthy people. Far more than the average joe, for sure.

Some spend lavishly because they can and will always be rich. Some do not spend at all.

I have met many wealthy who lamented in later life they did not "splurge" in earlier years to do the things they can no longer do. They can no longer drive and regret never having a nice car. They never went to Africa and now cannot travel. Regret is a terrible thing to have.

True, a fool throws their money away. But there is nothing wrong with indulgence. I did NOT throw my money away buying a $7500 amp, $7500 speakers or lavishing $5000 on my preamp. Or the $2500 on my CDP. I am doing okay financially and have a rainy day fund. But the regret of NOT getting a good stereo is something far more painful, depressing. My current setup enriches my life so much more, on a daily basis, I consider the money spent an investment in happiness and contentment. You might see it differently and that is fine. You have to discover life's lessons on your own to truly understand them.

I can see how this wisdom is quoted with all the high priced gear out there, but a lot, much, is expensive but attainable if worked for and saved for. That's how I did it and appreciate it even more because of the work involved getting it.

As one poster here quotes " He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." That is exactly how I feel about my audio expendatures, and with any purchase later on. Depends on priorities as well, I suppose.

 

[JohnVF]

It would seem that one of the things being overlooked is time. These mega-buck items, whether it be cars, stereo, watches, machines, etc take a huge amount of man-hours to custom build. That costs money, any lots of it. Often it's short-term borrowed money that must be repaid upon sale, with the interest. That has to be figured into the cost. Overhead, such as CNC Machining centers ARE NOT cheap. A 5-axis could get into 6 figures. Time on one isn't cheap to rent. Programming can be the Achilles heel and if you can't write your own, programmers like to be well paid.
My point is that mega-buck "?????" likely cost big bucks to build. The folks that do this work are talented craftsman, sometimes extraordinarily so, being given a job. And if it happens to be here in the US, all the better.
I represent a very small English CNC machine builder. All of our machines are single purpose, custom built, one off units designed for a specific purpose. They are not cheap and lead times can run 12 months or more. I've watched a fitter hand scrap one square foot of cast iron for days to get it perfect. Not just good, or OK, or that'll do. Perfect as in laser auto-collomated perfect to within a couple of microns.
And he's just one of an entire team tasked to build the machine.
The profit margin is , I doubt, what you think it is. Most people are surprised when they find out.
My point is this; You can throw all the money you want at anything you can think of and someone will come along to satisfy your needs. If you want custom, it's gonna cost. How custom depends on how much you got to throw. Does it make it better??? In some ways, yes. Certainly in build quality a huge improvement is to be expected. Performance?? No real answer there, at least in my view. What is an amazing revelation to you may out me to sleep. Your Ulysse Nardin keeps time just like my Timex does. Is yours nicer? Yes. Better? Not to me. Hell, my Timex may even keep better time. Would I own a Ulysse if I could afford it? Oh YEAH! Am I sad because I don't/can't? Not in the least. I am happy with what I have. And that in itself brings me joy. My wife has spent the better part of her life teaching me that one lesson.
And if I had the funds, I would sit down with an engineering team in my house and develop a sound that suits ME and have everything custom built to that end, from the first input jack to the last soundwave would be tailor-made for ME.
And please accept my apologies if ANY of this is taken in the negative. It's not meant to be. Be happy with what you have, and be happy for others for what they can have.

I didn't take any of it as negative. That was an excellent post.

 

[blackfly]

richamor: most companies would have you believe there is MASSIVE cost of manufacture but this is not true. There is far more materials in cars and they cost less. The ILLUSION of costly manufacture and research is one "trick" the high end continually uses to justify its prices but with some detailed examination it falls apart pretty quickly. Especially at the retail pricing suggested for the products in question.

 

[guiller]

Why all the sour grapes?

Perhaps I´ll be deviating a bit out of the topic, but this question is fascinating to me. This is a sort of philosophical question and many interesting people wrote about it. A quick answer to it was given by Andre Malraux in "Man's Fate" ("La Condition Humaine") and it could be summed up by saying that humans are never satisfied with anything they do or own. A sort of genetic hysteria. People will complain about everything for any reason, and it is normal that things are this way. It reflects diversity of opinions and views of many individuals with independent thinking and mainly the superior brain functions of our species. This does not happen with individuals of other species, so I would take this a positive sign.

 

[jimfet]

richamor: most companies would have you believe there is MASSIVE cost of manufacture but this is not true. There is far more materials in cars and they cost less. The ILLUSION of costly manufacture and research is one "trick" the high end continually uses to justify its prices but with some detailed examination it falls apart pretty quickly. Especially at the retail pricing suggested for the products in question.

Go find you a hand built chevy and see how much it cost. Better than that. Go find a $500 junk chevy in a junk yard and have it restored to new. You will be lucky if you get out below $50,000. Over $40,000 of that will be labor. Alot of these high end companies don't make high numbers of the models you see. During the production span of some amps. They may make fewer than 50. I would love to have the best of something. Other than the ribs I cook.

 

[grumpy]

If you ain't paying for it then why worry how much it costs. Time for everyone to move on.