Dr. Morbius
I.N.T.E.R.O.C.I.T.O.R.
Could I do this with a couple of velvet Elvis paintings?
Stop fearing the sub, learn to love it!
- Thread starter cubdog
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compaddict
AK Member
I just switched from two REL subs to a custom 2x4x10" stereo sub system. Wow!
tomlinmgt
Lunatic Member
What if the positioning of the mains excites a room mode (and it almost certainly will)? The way I see it (better yet, the way physics enables me to see it) you're pretty much screwed unless you have DRC to make the necessary corrections. :scratch2:
davidro
Lunatic Member
Does positioning of subs become irrelevant when you get the Dsp cinema?
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tomlinmgt
Lunatic Member
1) Insert control unit into rig between preamp and plate amp (easy)
2) Plug included mic into unit and position mic at listening position right about where your noggin would be when seated (stupid easy)
3) Push a few buttons on control unit to activate test tones from subs (stupid easier)
4) Leave everything alone for about fifteen or twenty minutes while the unit does its thing (you're officially anti-dickin' now)
5) Unplug the mic and adjust sub output to taste (I suppose the profoundly lazy could start whining right about now)
6) There is no sixth step..you were done at five.
bluesky
Lunatic Member
When I was 18 I really got into subs. Big time. I loved it. But... for me, the 'surface fleet' was really where I learned my profession. 
Subs for stereos? I do understand why folks like them. I got one for my wife's family room home theater/stereo system, sounds great when used correctly. I don't like home theater amps for music, great for movies though.
For my personal stereo system... I'm not very hot on the idea of using one. I prefer 2 floorstanding vintage 'big box' speakers on 4 inch speaker stands... let the woofers do all the work. Sounds right as rain to me, but then again, I'm a vintage guy.
Maybe I'll use one someday... but not any time very soon. I don't fear subs... I don't really see, or hear, any need for one. Sounds fine 'as is' without one.
But with all these smaller speakers they have now-a-days, high on speaker stands... I guess they are not only necessary but a requirement. If you have large volume box speakers with 12 inch woofers, preferably AlNiCo, that's all you need. Plenty of base.
I do also have a pair of 1970 - 23" high box speakers with 10" AlNiCo woofers (with a tweet)... and STILL plenty of base. I think it's just the newer speaker systems that just don't cut it without a sub, maybe? Like they 'must have' a sub woofer or something. Don't know much about the new stuff. To me, Big Box speakers just sound correct and "right". But that's just me and my perception of what stereo sound should sound like.
I really don't "learn to love" anything. What ever it is... You like it or you don't. That's it. Like Jazz! haha. 50s/60s Jazz is cool!
If you need a sub... use one! Why not! I would. It would be a necessary piece of gear!
Subs for stereos? I do understand why folks like them. I got one for my wife's family room home theater/stereo system, sounds great when used correctly. I don't like home theater amps for music, great for movies though.
For my personal stereo system... I'm not very hot on the idea of using one. I prefer 2 floorstanding vintage 'big box' speakers on 4 inch speaker stands... let the woofers do all the work. Sounds right as rain to me, but then again, I'm a vintage guy.
Maybe I'll use one someday... but not any time very soon. I don't fear subs... I don't really see, or hear, any need for one. Sounds fine 'as is' without one.
But with all these smaller speakers they have now-a-days, high on speaker stands... I guess they are not only necessary but a requirement. If you have large volume box speakers with 12 inch woofers, preferably AlNiCo, that's all you need. Plenty of base.
I do also have a pair of 1970 - 23" high box speakers with 10" AlNiCo woofers (with a tweet)... and STILL plenty of base. I think it's just the newer speaker systems that just don't cut it without a sub, maybe? Like they 'must have' a sub woofer or something. Don't know much about the new stuff. To me, Big Box speakers just sound correct and "right". But that's just me and my perception of what stereo sound should sound like.
I really don't "learn to love" anything. What ever it is... You like it or you don't. That's it. Like Jazz! haha. 50s/60s Jazz is cool!
If you need a sub... use one! Why not! I would. It would be a necessary piece of gear!
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tomlinmgt
Lunatic Member
I wouldn't say irrelevant, but it's much, much less of an issue. I think a pair, positioned where they sound best without DRC, will require less cut to the loudest frequencies to bring them down to match the weakest frequencies, thereby requiring less gain to bring the sub output to where it matches the mains...because once the unit is done running the test tones and makes its corrections the sub(s)output will be lower. How much lower is dictated by how deep the null is at the weakest frequency. In my case the subs weren't much quieter than before, but I have floor to ceiling bass traps in all five corners of my space and didn't have any severe nulls to begin with. Next I'll try removing some bass traps to see how capable the unit is at creating a balanced response without the aid of bass traps. I feel like it should still be able to balance it out, just not sure how much gain I'll have to use to get sub output where I need it. Having a pair helps...and use such a small amount of gain as it is I have a hell of a lot of headroom there to play with.
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Disappointed... I thought there would be Oriental carpet attached. ;-)
davidro
Lunatic Member
Thanks. Since my room is a lot smaller than yours, I'm thinking the 2 subs I have should be sufficient with the aid of the Dspeaker Cinema. They're located at the near-optimal spots anyway.
davidro
Lunatic Member
When I was 18 I really got into subs. Big time. I loved it. But... for me, the surface fleet was really where I learned my profession.
Subs for stereos? I do understand why folks like them. I got one for my wife's family room stereo/home theater system, sounds great when used correctly.
For my personal stereo system... I'm not very hot on the them, or the idea of using one. I prefer 2 floorstanding vintage 'big box' speakers... let the woofers do all the work. Sounds right as rain to me. I'm a vintage guy.
Maybe I'll use one someday... but not any time very soon. I don't fear subs... I really see, or hear, no need for one. Sounds fine 'as is' without one.
But with all these smaller speakers they have now-a-days, on speaker stands... I guess they are not only necessary but a requirement. If you have volume speakers with 12 inch woofers, preferably AlNiCo, that's all you need. Plenty of base.
I do also have a pair of 1970 - 23" high box speakers with 10" AlNiCo woofers (with a tweet)... and STILL plenty of base. I think it's just the newer speaker systems that just don't cut it, maybe? Like they must have a sub woofer or something. Don't know much about the new stuff.
1. Anico doesn't provide deeper bass than ferrite etc.
2. DB isn't just about achieving deeper bass. It's about OPTIMISING the bass.
3. 12" speakers? Man that's too small. Good enough for girls maybe. Go 15"s and report back.
tomlinmgt
Lunatic Member
Geez, cut me some slack. I'm still trying to cook up a tasty quip to Dr M's velvet Elvis comment. :scratch2: :sigh:
He needs to just build the damn thing so we can all marvel at its awesomeness. :ntwrthy:
cubdog
banging through drywall
Why is this such a difficult concept for so many people to grasp? No matter how many times, no matter how many ways distributed bass or even augmenting bass via one sub is explained someone comes back stating my speakers already go low enough I don't need any subs. Then the whole concept gets explained once again, and once again it flies right over the heads of so many.
I get that some people prefer not to use a sub or multiple subs. It can be a pain in the butt and an added expense. But I don't understand why such a simple concept is misunderstood. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, especially in the audio toolbox, and I understand it. We are talking about quality not quantity and quality is what we all seem to strive for.
cubdog
davidro
Lunatic Member
I can think of a few reasons:
1. They refuse to accept that their speakers of pride and joy are INCAPABLE of achieving optimal bass playback no matter what.
2. They have this interesting attitude that they do not require much bass for their music listening.
3. Some seemingly consider that somehow good bass is HARMFUL to their music listening because they think their musical taste is so refined & sophisticated.
4. Conservatism.
5. Lazy yet too proud to accept the simple scientific fact.
Condorsat
Audio Enthusiast
Epiphany!
:scratch2: That's a good point ... my last big box speakers (furniture) left the house in 2000 .... Hmmm ... maybe I should have got a sub sooner. :yes:
:scratch2: That's a good point ... my last big box speakers (furniture) left the house in 2000 .... Hmmm ... maybe I should have got a sub sooner. :yes:
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Dr. Morbius
I.N.T.E.R.O.C.I.T.O.R.
Correct. Alnico will compress at higher volumes also. A lot of guitar players prefer this compressed sound and will opt for alnico based speakers in their cabinets.
Dr. Morbius
I.N.T.E.R.O.C.I.T.O.R.
Kind of sums it up. People are flawed creatures with fragile egos that don't like having their paradigms challenged. Nor their PSBs.
Dr. Morbius
I.N.T.E.R.O.C.I.T.O.R.
Oh man, oh man! I just read the user manual PDF for the Anti-Mode 8033 cinema & Anti-Mode 8033S-II. It appears I would have to get a different model to dial in either two mono or two stereo subs. Next spring/summer I plan to assemble two more (bigger
) subs. Any idea on which model would be best for two mono, two stereo, four mono or two stereo pair? :scratch2:
JimPA
Distinguished Member
The Fried satellite and sub design require the satellite to be placed on top of the sub to get a flat measured response.
This is due to the first order Butterworth crossover layout which requires the drivers to be in the same vertical line for proper time alignment.
Actually it is a series resonance circuit which is also referred to a Quasi 2nd order crossover.
The exact driver separation distance is critical with these type of designs.
There is also considerable bass that exits the line terminus from the rear of the T-line satellite enclosures.
Room modes are not too bad due to the very large listening area I have.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=8250428&postcount=8