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Stopped Building a Tube Amp to... Build a Tube Amp

Have you tried installing the bottom plate on the amp for shielding?
A picture of the wiring might help us to see something in the layout.
 
In short, the wiring is pretty bad, and no doubt contributes to the problem, however, I still believe the real source of the problem is the heater outputs on the SMPS.

The use of the SMPS, as well as the chassis used mandates a non-standard layout/construction. I know there is about 50 things I am doing "wrong" as compared to a standard linear power supply amp, however, with DC filament power, many of the construction practices for a standard linear PS amp/ AC filaments should not be needed with theoretically clean SMPS.

Yes, I'll post some pictures. I can't change the overall construction, but I am open to reasonable changes.
 
If you want to measure it plate to cathode i guess its more than slightly under 1, but its still not going to be as high as the voltage amp in front of the inverter so the Miller capacitance will also be considerably less. If the idea is to make a simple low pass filter with an R and the Miller C, then you want the resistor ahead of the section with the most gain.

Slightly under 2.

Take things as slightly idealized for a moment... :) A split load triode stage. Idling with its grid at 25% of available B+. Raise its grid a volt. Cathode follows it( goes up a volt ), and the plate comes down a volt. For a 1V input the plate-cathode change is 2. Now with approximated cathode follower voltage output, we are looking at .8 to .9 volts response to the 1V increase in grid voltage. Sooooo, grid to plate/cathode voltage is usually about 1:1.8-9.

This is where the advantage lies; you get the creation of a second out of phase signal nearly free. Take a 12AX7 ideal numbers with a gain of 100. Arranged as a LTP, the plate to plate gain is 100, but a 12AX7 grounded cathode feeding a split load will have an overall 'plate-to-plate' gain of 200.
cheers,
Douglas
 
The reason why i was asking about a picture, is to see if any of the ac power input wires or switching wires go anywhere near the preamp wiring
 
Forgo the tubes and go switchmode all the way.

LOL. Nope. I really think properly made SMSP's can co-exist with tubes. Just not this PS.

While class D amps do have their place, I don't intend on using one for primary, non-mobile listening.
 
could always attempt to go full heretic: class D with tube outputs.

anyway, the 60hz thing, since nothing in this amp really has any 60hz connection, I wonder if its not a ground loop or a lack of shielding thing more than a power supply issue.
 
Might actually be better to put the Miller resistor between the input jack and the voltage amp.

Mental Note: Listen to @Gadget.

I'll explain, but here's an up date on my progress with this amp...

Without doing much more than previously mentioned, I got the 60Hz noise down to the point where I couldn't really tell if additional efforts were really making a difference or not. It was basically ear to speaker. So I decided to build up the other channel.

But when I built up the other channel, it was completely unstable. Motorboating (at least 3 distinct varieties), a strange pulsing "cosmic" sound, loud air hissing sounds, massive distortion at anything other than a very low volume. If there was a bad sound an amp could make, this amp made it.

One big problem is the tube sockets. Before I even installed them, I had to bend a little tab on each pin socket just to keep them from falling out of the ceramic part. They have so much "play" that they sometimes do not even stay on the tube pin. The only real way to make sure they are on each pin is to push each contact up from the bottom.

With good contact on the tube pins, channel 2 had the loud hissing (white noise) sound. Channel 1 had much lower hissing, and bad distortion with any input.

Me being me (That means stubborn.), I added the 10K resistor between the voltage amp and the PI. (as shown with "omit" on the schematic) -- No difference in the hiss at all. I put the wire back in, and connected the 10K in series with the input (grid of the voltage amp) and channel 2 now sounds fine.

I installed a 10K resistor the same way on channel 1, but it still has hissing. Touching the scope probe to the plate of the voltage amp stage makes it fine.

So as of right now, if I hold my scopemeter probe (which is a test lead, not a real scope probe) on the plate of the channel 1 voltage amp stage, the whole amp actually sounds really good.

EDIT: The Channel 1 hiss had something to do with the input source. There is no hiss from the internal DAC, or a different phone as the input. There is still a distortion on channel 1 that goes away when I touch the scopemeter probe to certain points in that channel.
 
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hm, sounds like the stray capacitence in the lead is loading it down enough to make it behave itself? If thats the case it has to be oscillating. see if it stops with the feedback unhooked. If it does you may have to work out a step network at the voltage amp to limit the bandwidth a bit.
 
I feel like I have to apologize for being all over the place with this project.

Scratch-building tube amps is not a good hobby for people with short attention spans, but I am doing it anyway.

It's basically working and sounding pretty good.

What did I do to fix it? I don't really know.

The variety of problems must have been mostly caused by the bad sockets. I also had a 6п14п on the left channel that was sensitive to a tap or flick. I'm not sure if it is the tube or just the socket issues. Remember, these are all very used Soviet military surplus 6п14п's (just over a buck a piece, including shipping from Ukraine), so I can add that to my list of excuses.

It's not that I am not smart enough about building tube amps, but I guess I am not smart enough to buy stuff that will help me avoid these problems. Tube (and socket) bottom feeding does sometimes result in aches and pains.

I've closed it up, and I am basically considering the project complete.

It looks cool, the LED VU meter works and looks very nice -- It has plenty of power, and sounds at least "OK".

Despite the way the SMPS works with regard to voltage regulation, it does work to run a basic tube amp. It actually emulates a Linear PS in that the output (each output) is dependent on load. There's an adjustment pot, but since it effects all outputs, you basically take what you get.

The SMPS definitely has some advantages. In addition to the wide input voltage, it is also very compact. I think it would be very difficult to build an EL84/6BQ5/6п14п P-P amp in this small of a chassis with a conventional power transformer.

It also runs very cool. With the SMPS frame (Heatsink) bolted directly to the aluminum chassis, there's no way it can get hot. The SMPS transformer does get warm to moderately hot, but I ran it for about an hour today with everything closed up, and nothing reached a temperature that would cause me any concern. In fact it's the coolest running tube amp I've ever seen. Nothing but the power tubes themselves get hot.

This cool operation is also shown in very low power consumption for an P-P tube amp. Here's a screen shot from my power consumption meter (music playing very softly -- idle for all practical purposes):

IMG_20210310_crop.jpg

Another observation about this SMPS. It shuts down upon applying high voltage (after the 30 sec delay) if the power tubes are hot. It seems that it does not like the sudden load on the +300V line if the tubes conduct too quickly. In a way, this is good as it is not a good thing to do to tubes anyway, but what concerns me is that this may mean I am close to the max load even during normal startup/operation. It has never done this during a cold start, and never tripped during normal operation. I will also add that all of the SMPS amps I have built have difficulty starting up when the tubes are hot.

It's not the ideal tube amp SMPS solution I'd like to see, but for a simple power amp that is at most what is described here, it does work.

Here's a finished picture for now, and I may post better pictures, and some square wave response pictures if I get a chance this evening.

IMG_20210310_sm.jpg
 
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I wonder if you could knock together a simple soft-start to the HV to deal with the hot start problem. Basically just a series resistor with a relay across it, and use a simple timer circuit to close the relay after some delay.
 
I wonder if you could knock together a simple soft-start to the HV to deal with the hot start problem. Basically just a series resistor with a relay across it, and use a simple timer circuit to close the relay after some delay.

OK, so in addition to my rat's nest wiring, the other thing I wouldn't disclose publicly -- Like you know -- on a very popular online forum or something:rolleyes: -- Is that I used automotive connectors (Insulated spade lugs) for the high voltage leads. I did this so that the entire top can be easily removed. (Six spade lugs in total -- Ground, 300V, 270V, times 2 channels each).

The point is that the spade lugs would make it pretty easy to temporarily wire in some resistors, and then just jumper across them during a hot start to see what is really going on.

However, with everything that is already in that small box -- SMPS (along with extra filtering, and the 270V divider power resistors), LED VU Meter, DAC -- And -- Oh, Yeah -- a tiny bit of space left over for -- The actual amps! -- I'm not really considering adding anything else.

I don't mind the few minutes wait for the tubes to cool enough to restart it. Note also that if you need to switch the analog inputs, you can switch to the DAC, change inputs, and then switch back to avoid loud hums/popping.

---

A couple other notes:

1. I can't do a square wave test. I don't have a "real" signal generator. I only have my phone with a signal generator app, and what's coming out of that (straight from phone to scopemeter) when set to square wave and 10KHz looks nothing like a square wave.

2. I now have a Radio Shack Audio Power meter (APM-500 -- The newer LED one). This amp can peg it on the 20W scale (peaks), and it will light the 11.5W LED on the 200W scale without significant distortion. (Yes, with speakers connected.) I trust that this meter is giving a fairly accurate TRMS indication. Unfortunately, due to the resolution of only 7 LED's per channel, all I can tell is that the true output is at least 11.5W/channel.

3. It's been running continuously all evening (> 4hrs) -- A family video chat, at least an hour of gaming, and right now it is streaming web radio. Hasn't smoked or thermal'ed out yet.
 
6bq5 equivalents at 300 plate volts is good for probably 12-14 watts of clean power at the speaker terminals so you're not far off the mark if it shows 11.5.
 
Here's a picture of it next to it's older brother:

DSC_0054_mod.JPG

The fact that these amps have a very similar "look" isn't really intentional. It's whatever I come across for a cheap chassis.

I also gave are really good shot at trying to kill it (the one on the left) on Thursday night. I volunteered to provide music for a local car show, and I took only this amp, my homemade mixer, and a pair of rather poor radio shack portable DJ speakers. 12-14 watts/channel was no where near enough for a large outdoor venue. I was running it into distortion all evening. It was connected to the end of a 100 foot extension cord, so I have no idea what the voltage going into the SMPS was.

It was also sitting on a table with a wrinkly table cover that block some/most of the air inlets on the bottom (although there was a cool breeze over the top). It ran for ~3 hours that way. Nobody noticed when it was distorting, and they complimented me on the music choices and sound. Several people noticed the tubes, and came over to look at the little tube amp.
 
a Crown XLS is what you want for that kind of thing. Lot of watts, not a lot of weight, not a lot of money.
 
I've got plenty of SS horsepower when I need it.

I bought 3 Ashley FET amps (250W true/channel). Between the 3, I got 2 working, so that's a true Kilowatt.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...series-3-what-should-they-be-used-for.898064/

I don't actually use the Ashley's because I can't lift the road case with the two of them without help. (and I haven't been successful at getting gigs that warrant that kind of horsepower.)

I normally run an old Optimus MPA-250 for events like the one Thursday night.

A vintage Fisher SS amp with added rack mount ears is my backup or small gig amp.

Thursday was just a quick impromptu volunteer thing, so I decided to use it as a stress test for the SMPS tube amp.

For speakers, I normally run a pair of Cerwin-Vega 15" DJ speakers. For what they are, these are almost vintage-speaker-sensitive, and they might have made the little tube amp almost adequate, but the CV's are too big to just throw in the back seat of the car.
 
Thats the appeal of the XLS. Switch mode supplies and class D output, they don't weigh very much. The XLS 1500 is 525 watts x2 into 4 ohms, and it weighs 12 lbs.
 
Thats the appeal of the XLS. Switch mode supplies and class D output,..

LOL. I just had one of those moments where one questions one's own rationality.

When I read that, for a split second, I actually had the thought: "...An SMPS in audio equipment?! That's just wrong!".

That said... Yes, I have been looking at amps like those. There are some similar Chinese Karaoke amps. Really high power (even after you derate for peak vs RMS output), and they are cheap, small, light, and cool looking. I'm sure I also came across those Crown amps when I was looking.

So now I've been told by 2 people in one Tube audio thread to go buy an SMPS/Class D amp.

But I'm not going anywhere.

Irrational as it may be, I'm going to build (try to build) at least one more SMPS tube amp.

I'm going to be more careful about input wire routing, grounding and construction techniques in the hopes of making a truely quiet SMPS tube amp.

After that, unless someone really makes a compelling (quality) SMPS for tube amps, I'll stick to proper vintage repair -- even if that means buying a proper replacement proper 60hz power transformer.
 
i'm not planning to go that route at home, but they make tremendous sense for portable audio stuff, even just from the perspective of not having to lug a massive heavy block of amplifier around.

If i was truly concerned about weight and efficiency I wouldn't have tube amps. Honestly I wouldn't even want to drag my Phase Linear around for a gig amp, its too blasted heavy.
 
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