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Suitable Cartridge+Needle for Infinity Black Widow Tonearm

Granted it was for a heavier arm, but I was supposed to find that for my dad's turntable that the stiffer suspension of the 2m linevs the OM was almost exactly countered by the added cart mass as far as resonant frequency is concerned. On that arm the frequencies were within like .5hz of each other with the numbers I was using.
 
user510 said:
Got your message liemjerry. Max cartridge weight the BW can counterbalance is 8.5grams. As noted above, figure a compliance rating of 20 as close to the lower limit on this tonearm which really wants to be paired with a light weight cartridge with a very soft (read that as high compliance) suspension. I don't know the Orto 2M Red but just looking at it I suspect it is a bit heavy. There may be other issues as well. In addition to the above noted lower weight and high compliance requirements, this arm does not accommodate cartridges with wide bodies. For instance, a wood bodied Denon will not fit. (I checked).

If you were to find a nice sample of a NOS ADC XLM-II, you would have an optimal match to this tonearm. However many other cartridges also work well but keep in mind the high compliance and low weight requirements in order to work on this highly specialized tonearm.

About the BW, it is a very good tonearm. With the right cartridge it can sound teriffic. But it is extremely finicky about what cartridge can be used on it.

-Steve
Click to expand...

I have an ADC ST XLM-II and it sounds really great on my BW. I tried a wood bodied Grado before the ADC but think it was a bit too heavy and didn't sound quite right. Really like the ADC so far, but I wonder how much potential is in his arm with an even higher end cart. I have been curious about some of the high compliance versions SoundSmith carts like the Boheme or the Aida and how they'd work on the Widow.
 
Crestwood23 said:
I have an ADC ST XLM-II and it sounds really great on my BW. I tried a wood bodied Grado before the ADC but think it was a bit too heavy and didn't sound quite right. Really like the ADC so far, but I wonder how much potential is in his arm with an even higher end cart. I have been curious about some of the high compliance versions SoundSmith carts like the Boheme or the Aida and how they'd work on the Widow.
Click to expand...

where the place do you buy and how much?
 
liemjerry said:
Hello
I have received Tonearm that fit to a Thorens TD-125MK1 the name is Infinity Black Widow
Existing needle and cartridge is using Shure M95. I want to upgrade to Ortofon 2M Red. Is it suitable or not?
Can you give me suugestion, what's cartridge+needle that is match or perfectly match with Infinity Black Widow ?

Thank you
Click to expand...

The Shure M95 cartridge is excellent and with a quality stylus, is a perfect match for your tone-arm...

https://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1030
 
I choose ortofon 2M Red at last.
so about attach this cartridge to the headshell of Infinity Black Widow (IBW) : this headshell have 2 holes that can not be adjust, which means, the screws position are fixed at it's hole, can't be shift left or right. So does it 100% surely precision on it's best position when I calibrate with Orotofon needle alignment protractor?

thanks
 
That's going to be a pretty rough match to the black widow's mass, I'd expect it to perform marginally at best.
 
It's not the cartridge mass that matters as much as the cartridge compliance match with the arm effective mass. IIRC the black widow is around 4g effective mass, so your resonance with the 2m red will be around 11-12hz, when you really want it down around 8 or 9. 11hz isn't terrible but it's not great.​
 
EngineerNate said:
It's not the cartridge mass that matters as much as the cartridge compliance match with the arm effective mass. IIRC the black widow is around 4g effective mass, so your resonance with the 2m red will be around 11-12hz, when you really want it down around 8 or 9. 11hz isn't terrible but it's not great.​
Click to expand...

so from your opinion, is it recommended or not when I use cartridge Ortofon 2M Red, that specification as follows :

  • output voltage: 5.5mV.
  • frequency response: 20 ~ 20Hz +3/-1dB.
  • tracking force range: 1.6 ~ 2.0g.
  • tracking force recommended: 1.8g.
  • tracking angle: 20 degrees.
  • weight: 7.2g.
  • replacement stylus: Orotofon 2M Red Stylus.

obviously, I use Shure M95ED :

SPECIFICATIONS

Frequency Response
20 to 20,000 Hz
Output (at 1,000 Hz)
4.7 mV at 5 cmlsec peak recorded velocity (Output voltage
given for stereo cut record. For mono cut record, output voltage
at both left channel and right channel cartridge terminals
will be 71% of the above figure.)
Channel Separation (minimum)
25 dB at 1 kHz
Channel Balance
Within 2 dB
Tip Tracking Force'
0.75 to 1.5 grams
Total Tone Arm Tracking Force (Destaticizer on record)'
1.25 to 2.0 grams
Force Exerted by Destaticizer
0.5 grams
'See section on tracking force
10
Typical Trackability (in cmlsec peak recorded velocity)
400 Hz-24 cmlsec
1,000 Hz-33 cmlsec at 1 gram tip tracking force
10,000 Hz-19 cmlsec
Inductance
700 millihenries
DC Resistance
1550 ohms
Optimum Load
47,000 ohms resistance in parallel with 200 to 300 picofarads
capacitance per channel. Load resistance can be up to 70,000
ohms with almost no audible change in frequency response.
Total capacitance includes both tone arm wiring and amplifier
input circuit.
Net Weight
6.4 grams
Replacement Styli
M95HUD: N95HEID Stylus, ivory lettering on black nameplate;
distortion-reducing nude hyperelliptical tip, 5 x 38p (.0002 x
,0015 in.); 0.75 to 1.5 grams tip tracking force
M95EDID: N95EDID Stylus, yellow lettering on black nameplate;
nude biradial (elliptical) tip, 5 x 18p (.0002 x ,0007 in.);
0.75 to 1.5 grams tip tracking force
 
Quite a bit of misinformation in this thread.

liemjerry said:
this headshell have 2 holes that can not be adjust, which means, the screws position are fixed at it's hole, can't be shift left or right. So does it 100% surely precision on it's best position when I calibrate with Orotofon needle alignment protractor?
Click to expand...

Fixed head shell and holes are pretty much set, as far as overhang adjustments are made at the SME style base.

BTW it's not the weight of the cartridge that matters the most. It's the compliance that needs to be addressed with this arm. @Blue Shadow I know can calculate and ID the differing information used over the years. Japan uses different numbers opposed to other origins.
 
Last edited:
Try the VE resonance calculator.
https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database_tools.php
It saves a lot of headache.
Keep in mind a lot of those specs. are questionable and unimportant to arm resonance.

The Shure HE or SAS would be the better choice between Shure and Ortofon.
ADC is also a good choice.

I mean if you're serious, Grace is the best MM out there.
The shibata tipped Pickering VX-15/Stanton 681EEE would also be on my short list.

You got a nice turntable and tonearm, don't chince out on the cartridge.
 
Blue Shadow said:
I don't talk about cartridge mass. If there are limitations on the mass of the cartridge that would be in the OM/Brochure for the arm and give a range for the cartridge. Just checked VE and the mass of one of the stepped versions (maybe the al since it does not proclaim CF) is stated as 3 grams. That needs a very high compliance cartridge of which there aren't many.

The cartridge limit is 8 grams. Not a hard barrier as one can do all sorts of things to get a cartridge to balance and add tracking force, but for standard set up that is the spec.

The DTi would provide a 12Hz resonance frequency, on higher than the ideal 8-11Hz when set up in a 3 gram effective mass tonearm. This is using the compliance spec as listed and not adjusted if the given number is for 100 Hz and not the standard 10 Hz. The Japanese manufacturers frequently used 100 Hz but another standard, the standard is 10Hz. Adjustment requires 1.75x100Hz number to get the approximate 10Hz compliance. If the Sumiko compliance is rated at 100Hz, then the DTi would give an 11 Hz resonance. Right there at the top of the range.

Fortunately, I have an MC20 with a 25 cu compliance just waiting for an ∞BW to fall from the sky.
Click to expand...

Blue Shadow said:
I sure am glad that your requested respondent to your query about the 23R has already posted or I would think I am intruding. Sort of hate it when folks want a specific person to answer the question unless that question is something not many will know about. You know like an EW special repair and such.

I have used a 23R since 86 on and off. Must have gotten it in really good shape because it is only half worn now. Picked up a Koetsu Black with the KD-600 10 year back or so and it to is about half tired. I've had an Ortofon MC-20 since new and although the microscope shows a lump of coal on the end of the cantilever, it played fine back when these three cartridges were compared. I'll know soon enough if the MC20 is still viable as I have a new MC-10 Super to install and compare on the same arm.

Anyway back to the 23R. (italics are today's comments, rest is from the past)
The Koetsu is quieter in the groove. This was one feature that really surprised me on first listen.
The Dynavector has tighter bass than the Koetsu
The Dynavector has higher highs then the Koetsu both of these as expected the early Koetsu Black is know as fantastic at midrange and a little lacking at the extremes. This borne out with the smoother clearer midrange on the Black.
The AT 15Sa, had since new, maybe 20% used, is crisper, not as smooth, more highs and more detail than these others (just because it was in the test). In all cases the phono stages were not adjusted for capacitance or impedance. This cartridge added because it is a very good MM for comparison.

The Ortofon MC-20 has better bass and is smoother but the 23R has more detail with less sibilance (is this the MC 20 showing its problems?)

There were differences in turntables, arms and phono pres but those are known entities in this system and the differences were from the cartridge mostly. The gear is listed on my comparison but you kinda know what I have been using, like I kinda know what you have been using. Overall, the guys like my 23R the best of the cartridges I have. It would be a good match for the ∞ and with it weighing only 5.3 grams you have a few grams of additional weight to add if your resonance is too high. Calculator says 11 and with added weight you could get closer to 9 if you wanted to. Go get the 23R.
Click to expand...

Post by Blue Shadow in my thread helped me a lot.

You also might want to read other post in that thread and my end results.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/ok-so-i-bought-a-kd-500-black-widow.744301/

If you look at this cartridge you can see it was totally made for it, look at the fit.

IMG_1312.JPG IMG_1311.JPG IMG_1309.JPG IMG_1307.JPG
 
Found on the Ortofon sites:

Dual ULM 55E cartridge
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/ulm-55e.shtml

Output - 0.7 mV
Frequency range - 10-25.000 Hz
Tracking ability at 315Hz at recommended tracking force *) - 70 µm
Compliance, dynamic, lateral - 30 µm/mN
Stylus type - Elliptical
Stylus tip radius - r/R 6/18 µm
Tracking force range - 1,25-1,75 g (12,5-17,5 mN)
Tracking force, recommended - 1,5 g (15 mN)
Tracking angle - 20°
Stylus colour - Black
*) Typical value


https://www.ortofon.com/stylus-dn-155e-p-380

:idea:

Or this one:

Dual ULM 65E
https://www.thakker.eu/en/pickup/dual-ulm-65-e-cartridge/a-4982/
 
noisefreq said:
A moving magnet with .7mV output.
I never realized that existed.
Click to expand...

Take that .7mv output cut it in half and for good measure take a little more off and you have the .33mv output
of a Pickering MM XLZ-7500 cartridge. Now thats getting low for a non MC.
 
EngineerNate said:
It's not the cartridge mass that matters as much as the cartridge compliance match with the arm effective mass. IIRC the black widow is around 4g effective mass, so your resonance with the 2m red will be around 11-12hz, when you really want it down around 8 or 9. 11hz isn't terrible but it's not great.​
Click to expand...

The 11-12 Hz is better than 8-9 Hz, you will get less LF noise from warps.
 
Thomas_AA said:
The 11-12 Hz is better than 8-9 Hz, you will get less LF noise from warps.
Click to expand...

12 is bordering on too high. You'll start to get resonances induced by content on the record that way. ~9hz has always been the target.

In any case, the Ortofon complaince at 20um/mN is best suited to an arm around 12g. The black widow would be happiest with a cart like the old Shures with a compliance up over 30um/mN.
 
EngineerNate said:
12 is too high. You'll start to get resonances induced by content on the record that way. ~9hz has always been the target.
Click to expand...

No, you don't. I've done the measurements with my Moerch UP-4 of 4 g mass. It just get better. The DP-8 tonearm has a vertical resonance between 15-20 Hz with most cartridges due to the side weights. It works perfect.
 
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