Surface Noise Sucks

[ryson2]

Im getting back into records after a long hiatus. I really enjoying myself so far but I need some help ridding my life of surface noise.

Right now I am using a Pro-ject TT that has a stock Ortofon OM5E cartiridge. I clean records to the best of my ability with a record cleaning machine. Nothing dirty is getting on the turntable. Im armed with a microfiber cloth. I use the magic eraser trick on the stylus before every side and before and after each session I blow the TT off with compressed air.

For example, often with brand new 180 gram vinyl, fresh out of the package right onto the cleaning machine then onto the turntable I am still experiencing surface noise in the quitest of parts of the music or between tracks there is still a pesky little snap, crackle or pop sometimes. I understand this is probably unavoidable with some of my old records but the new virgin vinyl ones are doing it too.

Is it static electricity? Is my cartridge damaged or crappy? All suggestions are apreciated.

 

[spartanmanor]

Does your RCM vacuum?

 

[bilboda]

Does your RCM vacuum?

Hmm..well if it's not getting it clean it certainly vaccuums, pardon the pun.
Yep, make sure it's dry, and static is a likely culprit and other cleaning methods can be attempted fairly cheaply. As far as getting rid of surface noise completely...that may not be totally possible. Why some of my old lp's are dead silent and some not is a bit of a mystery to me but I have found that some require several cleanings. I'd imagine new lps are the same. Don't know. Don't own any.
You may also try a slight increase in tracking force.

 

[drknstrmyknight]

Are you experiencing noise in the dead wax or throughout the record?

ditto on multiple cleanings and static - you have a stat gun and carbon fibre brush?

 

[forum7]

I switched from a Goldring Heroica to a Sumiko Black Bird and the noise was gone. Huge difference in detail and soundstaging too.

So yes, the cartridge has a lot to do with it.

 

[markd51]

One factor that will exasperate groove noise, whether in the dead wax, or during the music, is Stylus type, and size.

I cannot comment on your Ortofon, as I've never owned this brand of Cartridge in my life, but I suspect a better Cartridge that posesses a finer Micro-Line type Stylus will lower this tendency to hear groove noise, and every little snap, crackle, and pop on the Vinyl. I might suspect this to happen with Cartridges that have large, or conical type Stylus.

It could be cleaning methods, Fluids, and in fact you might be depositing more funk on your LPs than what they originally had? Mark

 

[SaSi]

There is a sticky thread about an "alternative" cleaning/restoration method for really, really dirty and noisy records.

For decades, I was under the impression that this surface noise (pops and cracks) is scratches and can't be eliminated. I was wrong.

I tried this method yesterday with a really noisy record. Perhaps my worst.

You can check the results in this post. The LP is currently undergoing it's second beauty mask and I will post results tomorrow, when it is finished.

 

[OvenMaster]

It's been my experience that everyday plain vinyl (especially from the '70's) has a lot more surface noise than the "audiophile" type pressings. Main reason is that a lot of vinyl was recycled stuff; ground up, melted, re-pressed. I've got a CBS Mastersound LP pressed from virgin vinyl and it's absolutely noiseless.

As others have said, cart and stylus are also a huge factor. Heck, all I did was switch from an Ortofon LM series to an OM in 1986 and noticed less noise.

Tom

 

[iLUVanalog]

It is not unusual, even on the cleanest vinyl, to have an OCCASIONAL pop or tick when played. I also have some lp's that are dead silent - I would swear I was listening to a cd....except with more depth, life, and three-dimensionality to the sound.

 

[Arkay]

Noise comes from several sources. Getting to the root of it and eliminating it may require going through the causes:

1, Dirt in the grooves. Clean, clean and re-clean, using whatever tools and techniques you have at hand (a lot about cleaning has been discussed on AK, and is in the archives), definitely finishing off with a distilled/pure water rinse-and-vacuum on an RCM. For stubborn cases, make sure you include a light steaming - it helps loosen stubborn gunk that regular cleaning may not get.

2. Static. Do you use a zerostat (or equivalent)? You mention blowing dust from the turntable. THAT could create a static charge, which could be passed to the LP. Make sure your TT is grounded properly to the amp, and try the zerostat on the platter itself, before putting the LP on it.

3. The LP itself may just be a noisy recording, due to the vinyl itself, the way the recording was made, and the quality (or lack thereof) of the pressing, along with any accumulated damage (scratches). Are some LPs silent, and others noisier, on your system? IF you are sure you have thoroughly cleaned the LP and zapped away any static, and are still hearing surface noise, maybe you just need to find a better copy of the disc. But make sure you have REALLY deep-cleaned the disc well, first.

4. The gear. A worn stylus that isn't tracking the groove properly may create unwanted noise. Some cartridges are noisier than others. Try replacing your stylus with a new one. If you have a test LP with a "silent groove", you can experiment to lower the noise floor of your gear by selecting the quietest cart, if you have more than one to choose from... or just buy a good one that is known to be quiet.

There are other sources of noise in a turntable and in a system, but I'm assuming you only get this noise when the needle is on the LP, and that it is typical "record noise", not rumble, electrical hum, etc... If this assumption is correct, then one of the above should be the source.

Good luck ferreting out the source of the noise and eliminating it. The process can be frustrating, but the rewards when you get there are worth it! :thmbsp:

 

[BrocLuno]

Get a new (uprated) stylus for the Ortofon like a 20 or 30 and see if it makes a difference? If not, it is either static or noisy records?

 

[Mr. Lin]

I switched from a Goldring Heroica to a Sumiko Black Bird and the noise was gone. Huge difference in detail and soundstaging too.

So yes, the cartridge has a lot to do with it.

Apparently a "black background" is supposed to be the major strength of the Blackbird.

 

[manderson]

For decades, I was under the impression that this surface noise (pops and cracks) is scratches and can't be eliminated. I was wrong.

True, but you need to use the right software tools. Clicks and pops are different from "surface noise". I use the Waves Restoration bundle along with Wavelab to process my vinyl recordings. The "X-Click" and "X-Crackle" plugins are worth their weight in gold, but I have never used "X-Noise". I recently bought the upgrade to "Z-Noise" which is supposed to be a much improved noise reduction plugin. I played with it for about three days and came to the same conclusion: Surface noise is well within the human hearing audio spectrum. Attempting to filter out this noise also removes frequencies in the source audio signal. The trade-off is not worth it in my opinion. You are better off with a good EQ rolling off the high and low ends beyond the upper and lower end of the audio source, which obviously differs from one recording to another.

 

[SaSi]

Well, leaving the glue magic that eliminates much of the groove crackls, there is software.

I have been using CoolEdit Pro for that, and it does well with hiss and tape noise. Pops is a different issue altogether.

I recently tried the CEPro noise filter on my current PC, some 10-20 times faster than the one I used to experiment with.

I was able to push the filtering precision parameters to values that would cause my old PC to either stall or require days to run. It now runs in real time or faster, and the precision is able to filter out most of the pops. The real brief ones are succesful eliminations, but the longer ones are troublesome because if filtered out the generate brief silences.

It is much better to filter out unwanted noise at the source. Cleaning and restoring an LP, carefully aligning the cartridge and - also - selecting the apprpriate cartridge.

I myself have found in the past that some needles pick up less noise than others. Basically, a larger conical needle won't penetrate deep into the groove and if the noise is down there, it won't be picked up.

Same with a small eliptical one. If the LP is worn out and dust particles have been pressed against the top edges of the grooves by a large needle, then a small needle will go deep down the groove and pick up clean sounds.

Does that make sense?

 

[Arkay]

I myself have found in the past that some needles pick up less noise than others. Basically, a larger conical needle won't penetrate deep into the groove and if the noise is down there, it won't be picked up.

True; a lot of fine dust/grit settles into the bottom of the grooves. A stylus riding higher up won't be affected by it.

Same with a small elliptical one. If the LP is worn out and dust particles have been pressed against the top edges of the grooves by a large needle, then a small needle will go deep down the groove and pick up clean sounds.

Does that make sense?

I think it's more likely that the smaller needle getting deeper into the groove is reaching areas of the groove that are not so worn and damaged by the passage of the thicker needles, which make contact higher up in the groove side walls. I have no proof of this from microscopic examination, but it seems to make sense to me.

 

[Mopic5]

After taking all the steps that Arkay so nicely outlined, at some point you’ve got to accept that, to some degree, surface noise is part & parcel of vinyl listening – so sit back and enjoy the music. Dust, and static are constants and they’ll always impact these little microphones at the end of our sticks.
One area that hasn’t been mentioned in this thread is training the mind to de-emphasize and listen through the surface noise, whether it’s tape hiss, rumble or dust. Life is full of surface noise and we’ve all learned to place those aural signals not essential to survival or well-being back onto another burner.
This is a long known physiological skill – not some psycho-mystical black art. Newly fitted hearing aid users have to battle a whole range of world “surface noise” that had previously been blocked for decades. The mind has to be re-taught to shuffle and de-emphasize surface noise signal.
Temperament plays a big part in this retraining. If the new hearing aid user is likely to become upset about a cougher halfway across an auditorium – so much so, that he or she fixates on the hacker thus ruining the evening, then that person is most likely not a good candidate for hearing aids and will rip them out before six weeks are up.
It’s both a psychological and physiological talent in being able to tune out surface noise.
To some extent, I suspect a lot of the clamor over “surface noise” comes from folks who have cut their teeth with digital/cd music listening. I suggest you bring your ears in line with vinyl and not vinyl in line with CDs. After a point, the quest to bring vinyl to CD-like black background becomes a fight that I don’t have any dog in. There are too many records to listen to and precious little time to do it in.
- Mario

 

[solarmusick]

Mild surface noise doesn't really bother me at all, but of course I'd prefer none but that's practically impossible. Moderate surface noise can be a bit annoying, especially during softer parts, but overall it doesn't bother me too much. I can't stand severe surface noise, but only about 3/200 of my albums are this way. The majority (~75%) of my LPs have only mild, so I'm happy.

It seems kind of random though. The ones with severe surface noise look like they'd play fine, and some of the ones I got really cheap look a bit beat up but play great. Generally, you can get a good idea by viewing the vinyl under a light, but it's not 100%.

 

[datsunmike]

Main reason is that a lot of vinyl was recycled stuff; ground up, melted, re-pressed.

Tom

Where did you get this information from? There were mistakes in pressing albums and the vinyl was reused but to say this is the cause of noise is erroneous. It's probably poor masters or poor pressing conditions with dirty pressings equipment. I was fortunate enough to be able to go to some record pressing plants when I worked for Columbia in the 70s and they took great care with the production of records.

 

[erniejade]

brand new 180 gram vinyl..... The last 3 or 4 LP's I got that were brand new 180 gram vinyl SUCKED!@ they sounded horrible! Not only surface noise, but just a static sound in general. I will never buy one of the 180's again. I have even compaired a U2 lp original to the 180 remastered and the original blew it out of the water.

 

[meggy]

brand new 180 gram vinyl..... The last 3 or 4 LP's I got that were brand new 180 gram vinyl SUCKED!@ they sounded horrible! Not only surface noise, but just a static sound in general. I will never buy one of the 180's again. I have even compaired a U2 lp original to the 180 remastered and the original blew it out of the water.

Were all 3 the same label / "format"?

Varies widely, I agree. My 180g U2 Joshua Tree was just plain bad. Unplayable, actually. I've had much better consistency with 200g Quiex but you gotta pay the bucks.

I keep going back to used LP's and clean 'em up. Might take 3 or 4 dups to hit on a cleaned up NM but there's just something about having the OP.