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SX-3900 Powers on, but no audio output...

<snip>

If pin 22's +54v is drawn down, turn it off and post that fact.

<snip>



sigh...... I should have said pulled down lower than 54 volts, of which 18 volts certainly qualifies.

edit: I will be gleaning what information I can from the resistor voltage readings, there may be some sign errors sneaking in, or a broken circuit. I have to get the schematic up and look very close.

OK, whatever heat damage that can happen has happened. That current is going somewhere, and I had OTHER PLANS on finding out where. That is called jumping the gun.

The voltage readings at the 10 ohm resistors are to be made only on the electrically closest side to the emitter resistors. It is read correctly ground referenced. Reading the other side didn't hurt anything, but tells us nothing we don't know.

The diode voltage readings are done correctly too.

The voltage readings for the 1k, 1.3k, 3k 220 and 560 ohm resistors however, need to be more informative. I'm not sure how many more ways I can say this to get the concept across. Notice that you posted 18 and 18. Subtracting the two yields zero. If the result were truely zero, it would be significant, but it's probably not. The results are getting lost in the measurement conversion. 18.5 - 18.3 may tell me something. But even that can be improved upon.

The readings must be done differentially, across the component. I'm not going to go back and pull up my quotes on doing those readings.

Instead:
Notice how each side of the resistor has a probe attached? And the reading on the meter is 00.0 millivolts. That's significant, as it tells me that absolutely no current is flowing through that resistor.

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I'm sorry Mark. I thought you wanted those previous readings due to the fact that we were where we were before with it all when you requested them.

I had no intention of jumping the gun, it was simply an improper interpretation.
 
It's going to take me a while to finish the post I'm working on - life intrudes - BUT the gist is that intentions change with the situation, and I thought I had clearly spelled out the turn it off conditions.

The additional steps were for IF the 54v stayed up this time - because I hoped that the transistor socket solution would have cleared things up.

There are several wire jumpers on the board's +54v rail, that can be opened up to facilitate current tracing - the MOST difficult aspect of troubleshooting.

I'm working with the data in the readings you already provided, and it's telling me some things that initially look really screwy, things that I have to sort out.

I have a STRONG feeling we are NOT on the same page........
 
edit: No sweat, the not on same page comment is addressed below, and isn't any additional gripe, but just a statement of fact and is more my fault for not getting more detailed, so all this is done so we see the same thing - you for real, me in my mind's eye.

this post will be changing until this line disappears.


This order is giving me a headache, and making me cross eyed, as well as impeding analysis (I'm missing things). So, here's a new order for readings (but I am NOT saying to take readings now..):
(feel free to copy / edit the readings into the list)

------------- left channel -------
input differential stage
across R115 100k ??v

across R109 1k ??v
across R113 1k ??v

bias current source
across R123 3k ??v
across R127 220 ??v

across R133 220 ??v

nsa current source
across R147 1k ??v
across R159 1.3k ??v

across R153 1k ??v
across R155 1.3k ??v



------------- right channel -------
input differential
across R116 100k ??v

across R110 1k ??v
across R114 1k ??v

bias current source
across R124 3k ??v
across R128 220 ??v

across R134 220 ??v

nsa current source
across R148 1k ??v
across R160 1.3k ??v

across R154 1k ??v
across R156 1.3k ??v

protection relay drive
across R196 560 ??v

Diodes:
D111 ??v anode ??v cathode
D112 ??v anode ??v cathode
D117 ??v anode ??v cathode
D118 ??v anode ??v cathode

I expected to see D111 & 112's cathodes having +60v or so on them, OR +18v as they forward conducted the +18v. But if the anodes were at -18v, that would explain that.

I expected to see D117 & 118's anodes to have -60v on them, while zero volts on the cathodes is even more astounding.

Which connectors TO the board are disconnected? The center one is the outputs, while the two on the ends are power (+/- 60). Then there are the four that come FROM the board to the transistors. What is the status of each of these seven connectors?

When in this troubleshooting sequence did you disconnect them?

With no +/- 60v there is no feedback path, as the drivers are not energized. It appears without deeper anaysis that this amp CAN be powered up for DC balance tests without the outputs being connected - WITH NO LOAD. BUT this is the first time I remember saying that.
 
which connectors to the board are disconnected? The center one is the outputs, while the two on the ends are power (+/- 60). Then there are the four that come from the board to the transistors. What is the status of each of these seven connectors? (no connectors are disconnected. They are all intact.)

when in this troubleshooting sequence did you disconnect them? (the red wire from pin 22 )power amp pin 5) was cut to facilitate the troubleshooting we did. Ie 470 ohm resistor testing. That wire was reconnected though prior to any other tests, and is currently connected. And the one connector on the end, bottom of power amp board, closest to the rear of the receiver when I had that short issue on the output transistor. Disconnected, then reconnected. Nothing else.)

with no +/- 60v there is no feedback path, as the drivers are not energized. It appears without deeper anaysis that this amp can be powered up for dc balance tests without the outputs being connected - with no load. But this is the first time i remember saying that.

I will not do anything until you tell me exactly what to do.
 
We need to do some ohmmeter work. The + 60v and -60v didn't show up at the amplifier card according to the diode voltage readings you posted. Without those voltages, the amp has no hope of working correctly. D111, D112, D117 & D118 are supposed to allow the +54v and -54v to substitute for the missing + - 60 volts, but you read zero volts on d111, d112 cathodes and rally strange stuff on D117, D118...

edit: it may be safer to first trace the circuit paths looking for breaks before turning on the power and checking / verifying the voltages. Also you want to have all but the tip of your dmm probe insulated, so nothing can get shorted out accidentally.

It starts at the pair of big caps you put the bleeders on. Turn the unit on with the DBT connected, and verify that there is +60v at one capacitor / bleeder terminal and -60v at the other. These measurements are taken from a ground reference - the black multimeter lead.

we want to be sure the caps are charging and have the appropriate voltage.

Then CAREFULLY reach over and measure the voltages on the heatsinks for the driver transistors - the collectors for those transistors are connected to the + and - 60v, the metal tab is connected to the collector, and the heatsinks were not insulated from the metal mounting tab. The outer two heatsinks are at -60v(orange wires), the inner two heatsinks are at +60v(red wires).

Turn off the unit. Make sure with the voltmeter that the voltages at the cap have decayed to zero.

IF you find the + & - 60 volts at the heatsinks, that is all, post and let me know it's there.

If the heatsinks aren't at these voltages, then you have to find out why not, starting at the capacitor's terminals, going off the board on the pair of orange black and red cables across the unit's bottom to the amplifier board, then from the connectors on the amp board to the heatsinks through the transistors. There has to be essentially zero ohms from the cap tyerminals to the heatsinks.

Ideally, before applying power you could verify the ohms. The orange wires (-60v) go to the two heatsinks on the outside edges of the board, and the two heatsinks towards the center of the board go to the red (+60v) wires.

At the capacitors, the cap terminals closest to the top of the unit are the grounds, and the cap terminals closest to the center of the board are the +60 v which exits at the red wire and is the cap closest to the back panel of the unit, and the -60v from the cap closer to the big transformer exiting through the orange wire.

This is the next step - get the appropriate polarity of 60v to the appropriate heatsinks for the driver (to-220) transistors along the bottom edge of the board.

I already did all of this on the bench unit, connecting to the appropriate capacitor connection, and probing the two appropriate heatsinks, then repeating for the opposite polarity.
 
We need to do some ohmmeter work. The + 60v and -60v didn't show up at the amplifier card according to the diode voltage readings you posted. Without those voltages, the amp has no hope of working correctly. D111, D112, D117 & D118 are supposed to allow the +54v and -54v to substitute for the missing + - 60 volts, but you read zero volts on d111, d112 cathodes and rally strange stuff on D117, D118...

edit: it may be safer to first trace the circuit paths looking for breaks before turning on the power and checking / verifying the voltages. Also you want to have all but the tip of your dmm probe insulated, so nothing can get shorted out accidentally. (Did so, see no visible and the DMM ohm check results are below for the path)

It starts at the pair of big caps you put the bleeders on. Turn the unit on with the DBT connected, and verify that there is +60v at one capacitor / bleeder terminal and -60v at the other. These measurements are taken from a ground reference - the black multimeter lead. (There is +51vdc on the main cap closest to the rear of the unit, on the pin closest to the center of the board. And there is -51vdc on the other main cap, closest to the front of the unit, on the pin closest to the center of the board. Both referenced to ground.)

we want to be sure the caps are charging and have the appropriate voltage. (At +51vdc and -51vdc...)

Then CAREFULLY reach over and measure the voltages on the heatsinks for the driver transistors - the collectors for those transistors are connected to the + and - 60v, the metal tab is connected to the collector, and the heatsinks were not insulated from the metal mounting tab. The outer two heatsinks are at -60v(orange wires) (Got -51vdc on these outer two heatsinks, with DMM black lead on orange wires and red lead on heatsink), the inner two heatsinks are at +60v(red wires) (Got +41vdc on these inner two heatsinks, with DMM black lead on the red wires and the red lead on the heatsink).

Turn off the unit. Make sure with the voltmeter that the voltages at the cap have decayed to zero. (Did so. Went to zero)

IF you find the + & - 60 volts at the heatsinks, that is all, post and let me know it's there.

If the heatsinks aren't at these voltages, then you have to find out why not, starting at the capacitor's terminals, going off the board on the pair of orange black and red cables across the unit's bottom to the amplifier board, then from the connectors on the amp board to the heatsinks through the transistors. There has to be essentially zero ohms from the cap tyerminals to the heatsinks. (With power off and caps discharged, from the main cap closest to the front of the receiver, pin closest to the center of the board to the inside heatsinks has continuity, 0 ohms. From this same main cap pin to the outside heatsinks it starts off at OL - No Continuity then climbs slowly on the meter, as if possibly charging a cap???. Then from the main cap closest to the rear of the receiver, pin closest to the center of the board has continuity, 0 ohms to all four heatsinks.)

Ideally, before applying power you could verify the ohms. The orange wires (-60v) go to the two heatsinks on the outside edges of the board, and the two heatsinks towards the center of the board go to the red (+60v) wires. (This one was tricky. When I check for continuity on the respective heatsinks with their respective wire color from the rectifier board, they start off for a split second with continuity, then lose the continuity and the ohms begin to climb. Not intermittent, but increasing resistance. I found myself trying this repeatedly with the same results, like chasing a ghost to get the continuity.)

At the capacitors, the cap terminals closest to the top of the unit are the grounds, and the cap terminals closest to the center of the board are the +60 v which exits at the red wire and is the cap closest to the back panel of the unit, and the -60v from the cap closer to the big transformer exiting through the orange wire.

This is the next step - get the appropriate polarity of 60v to the appropriate heatsinks for the driver (to-220) transistors along the bottom edge of the board.

I already did all of this on the bench unit, connecting to the appropriate capacitor connection, and probing the two appropriate heatsinks, then repeating for the opposite polarity.

I hope I did these correctly as you requested. The exact points of where to check the orange and red wires have several places, the fuse block, the rectifier board and the wire connectors going to the power amp board.

Please let me know if my checks were correct and clarify further if I did not do what you need to troubleshoot this portion of things.
 
SolutionRoom said:
(Got -51vdc on these outer two heatsinks, with DMM black lead on orange wires and red lead on heatsink), the inner two heatsinks are at +60v(red wires) (Got +41vdc on these inner two heatsinks, with DMM black lead on the red wires and the red lead on the heatsink).

Between the above, and the resistance readings, something looks really funky. Measuring from the red wire (+60) to the heatsinks can only have two results:
zero volts(the inner two heatsinks, which should be at +60v)
or
120 volts(the outer two heatsinks, which should be at -60v).

I did not express myself well.
markthefixer said:
These measurements are taken from a ground reference - the black multimeter lead.

The ground is always the bare metal of the chassis, I take a wire with alligator clips on both ends, connect one of the alligator clips to the bare metal of the chassis, and the other alligator clip to the black meter lead.

That is the common method for taking voltage measurements, you have taken quite a few like that.

The UNCOMMON method and exception is what I showed in the picture, where the voltage is read across the component. That is sometimes called a differential voltage reading, as we are looking for the difference in a voltage from one place to another that ISN'T ground. In this case, only across those resistors.

The readings to the big caps and heatsinks are as follows.

Turn on the unit, with the DBT connected.

Connect the black meter lead to the bare metal of the chassis. Leave it connected there - do not move it.
Probe with the insulated red meter lead, with the meter set to read voltage.

read the voltage on:
1. the big cap that is closest to the back, the cap's lead closest to the center
2. the big cap that is closest to the transformer, the cap's lead closest to the center
3. The heatsink closest to the 3900's back panel on the amplifier board.
4. The next heatsink towards the front panel
5. The next heatsink towards the front panel
6. The heatsink closest to the 3900's front panel on the amplifier board.
 
Between the above, and the resistance readings, something looks really funky. Measuring from the red wire (+60) to the heatsinks can only have two results:
zero volts(the inner two heatsinks, which should be at +60v) (From the red wire to the inner two heatsinks is +41vdc)
or
120 volts(the outer two heatsinks, which should be at -60v) (From the red wire to the outer two heatsinks is -41vdc).

I did not express myself well. (I think that you have now stooped to my lowly level and we are on the same page for sure.)


The ground is always the bare metal of the chassis, I take a wire with alligator clips on both ends, connect one of the alligator clips to the bare metal of the chassis, and the other alligator clip to the black meter lead. (I have had an alligator clip attached to the chassis for this the whole time, so my pea brain had enough sense to at least do it this way.)

That is the common method for taking voltage measurements, you have taken quite a few like that.

The UNCOMMON method and exception is what I showed in the picture, where the voltage is read across the component. That is sometimes called a differential voltage reading, as we are looking for the difference in a voltage from one place to another that ISN'T ground. In this case, only across those resistors.

The readings to the big caps and heatsinks are as follows.

Turn on the unit, with the DBT connected. (DBT is in line)

Connect the black meter lead to the bare metal of the chassis. Leave it connected there - do not move it. (Done.)
Probe with the insulated red meter lead, with the meter set to read voltage. (Red DMM lead used and set to read DC voltage)

read the voltage on:
1. the big cap that is closest to the back, the cap's lead closest to the center (+50vdc)
2. the big cap that is closest to the transformer, the cap's lead closest to the center (-50vdc)
3. The heatsink closest to the 3900's back panel on the amplifier board. (+50vdc)
4. The next heatsink towards the front panel (-50vdc)
5. The next heatsink towards the front panel (-50vdc)
6. The heatsink closest to the 3900's front panel on the amplifier board. (+50vdc)

These readings I am POSITIVE were done as you requested and the accuracy is guaranteed. Two photos of the underside were also taken.
 
Nice. Now if it were at the correct amount. What's next Mark?

We're on the DBT, voltages will be low. That's why I warned about the protection clicking out when increasing the bias/idle current. The more current the 3900 draws from the power line, the lower the voltages will drop. In case of a catastrophic fault pulling a lot of current the voltage should drop low enough to prevent or limit damage - the whole point of using the DBT.

1. with the DBT connected, turn the 3900 on.

2. read the pin 22 voltage referenced to ground with that pin's disconnected wire reconnected. 470 ohm resistor should just be hanging there doing nothing. reporting format example: 18.52 volts

I spotted a better point to read the amplifier's output voltage on the amp board, just next to the two big coils, at R187 & 188 (both 10 ohm 1 watt resistors), the two leads FURTHEST from the center of the board.

3. read the ground referenced voltage at R187's outermost lead
4. read the ground referenced voltage at R188's outermost lead
reporting format examples: 0.040 volts, 1.675 volts, 9.50 volts, 18.52 volts, 48.1 volts.

5. turn it off, post the results.
 
We're on the DBT, voltages will be low. That's why I warned about the protection clicking out when increasing the bias/idle current. The more current the 3900 draws from the power line, the lower the voltages will drop. In case of a catastrophic fault pulling a lot of current the voltage should drop low enough to prevent or limit damage - the whole point of using the DBT.

1. with the DBT connected, turn the 3900 on. (DBT in line and power on)

2. read the pin 22 voltage referenced to ground with that pin's disconnected wire reconnected. 470 ohm resistor should just be hanging there doing nothing. reporting format example: 18.52 volts (Starts about 15.8vdc, then climbs steadily, never stabilizing to get a solid reading. Climbs at about a tenth of a volt every five seconds or so. I let it go up to about 18.50vdc, (which was about 2 minutes or so with power on) then powered it off, fearing that the power might be on too long and realizing that the voltage may not stabilize any time soon or until something possibly bad happened, popped, blew, etc. BUT nothing appeared to have popped, blew, burned, etc. and the DBT never went bright while checking it, except for the initial 2 seconds or so on initial power up)

I spotted a better point to read the amplifier's output voltage on the amp board, just next to the two big coils, at R187 & 188 (both 10 ohm 1 watt resistors), the two leads FURTHEST from the center of the board.

3. read the ground referenced voltage at R187's outermost lead (Get the same reading as on pin 22. Starts about 15.8vdc then climbs steadily upward at the same approximate rate as the pin 22 voltage did, never stabilizing)
4. read the ground referenced voltage at R188's outermost lead
reporting format examples: 0.040 volts, 1.675 volts, 9.50 volts, 18.52 volts, 48.1 volts. (Get the same reading as on pin 22 and R187's lead. Starts about 15.8vdc then climbs steadily upward at the same approximate rate as the pin 22 and R187's voltage did, never stabilizing)

5. turn it off, post the results.

I twisted all of the output transistors wires carefully, double checked them for shorts and continuity and re-plugged them in. As stated above... never could get a stable reading from these points.

BTW, the pin 22 wire was already connected from the previous tests, so remained there, with NO 470 ohm resistor.
 
There will be variation and instability in that 18v line. It is referred to as the "rail". The amplifier outputs are also at the positive rail.

When you did the parts substitutions, what did you use for the various diodes? Were they all replaced?

1. turn on the unit, with the DBT connected.
2. make all these voltage measurements measured across each resistor, like the picture showed.



------------- left channel -------
input differential stage
measured across R115 100k ??v

measured across R109 1k ??v
measured across R113 1k ??v

bias current source
measured across R123 3k ??v
measured across R127 220 ??v

measured across R133 220 ??v

nsa current source
measured across R147 1k ??v
measured across R159 1.3k ??v

measured across R153 1k ??v
measured across R155 1.3k ??v



------------- right channel -------
input differential
measured across R116 100k ??v

measured across R110 1k ??v
measured across R114 1k ??v

bias current source
measured across R124 3k ??v
measured across R128 220 ??v

measured across R134 220 ??v

nsa current source
measured across R148 1k ??v
measured across R160 1.3k ??v

measured across R154 1k ??v
measured across R156 1.3k ??v

protection relay drive
measured across R196 560 ??v

Diodes:
measured from a ground reference.
D111 ??v anode ??v cathode
D112 ??v anode ??v cathode
D117 ??v anode ??v cathode
D118 ??v anode ??v cathode

3. turn it off and post the readings.
 
When you did the parts substitutions, what did you use for the various diodes? Were they all replaced?

Yes, they were all replaced, per your recommendations within this thread. I believe this list covers them all. Here they are again in one neat tidy place. I am going in now to do the readings you just requested.

512-1N5234B 6.2v zener D101 - D106
512-1N4148 D113 - D116
512-UF4004 D111, D112, D117, D118
512-1N4454 D129, D130, D132, D133
512-1N5245B 15v zener D131
 
Yes, they were all replaced, per your recommendations within this thread. I believe this list cover them all. Here they are again in one neat tidy place. I am going in now to do the readings you just requested.

512-1N5234B 6.2v zener D101 - D106
512-1N4148 D113 - D116
512-UF4004 D111, D112, D117, D118
512-1N4454 D129, D130, D132, D133
512-1N5245B 15v zener D131

And the markings on the board corresponded correctly to the way all the diodes were inserted, no "errors"? The board I have is different from yours in several aspects, and the old picture shields a few markings, and is of the board after components were changed, not before.

I'm just trying to figure out why both are railed positive.
 
And the markings on the board corresponded correctly to the way all the diodes were inserted, no "errors"? The board I have is different from yours in several aspects, and the old picture shields a few markings, and is of the board after components were changed, not before.

I'm just trying to figure out why both are railed positive.

Yes, the diodes area ll installed according to the board markings, I just verified them all. I am posting those readings now. Give me a few minutes to post them.
 
1. turn on the unit, with the DBT connected.
2. make all these voltage measurements measured across each resistor, like the picture showed.

Here are the readings requested...

------------- left channel -------
input differential stage
measured across R115 100k -7.69v

measured across R109 1k +0.024v
measured across R113 1k +0.052v

bias current source
measured across R123 3k -0.665v
measured across R127 220 -0.056v

measured across R133 220 +0.027v

nsa current source
measured across R147 1k 0v
measured across R159 1.3k -0.343v

measured across R153 1k 0v
measured across R155 1.3k +0.336v



------------- right channel -------
input differential
measured across R116 100k -7.71v

measured across R110 1k -0.026v
measured across R114 1k +0.050v

bias current source
measured across R124 3k -0.673v
measured across R128 220 -0.062v

measured across R134 220 +0.032v

nsa current source
measured across R148 1k 0v
measured across R160 1.3k -0.358v

measured across R154 1k 0v
measured across R156 1.3k +0.365v

protection relay drive
measured across R196 560 0v

Diodes:
measured from a ground reference.
D111 +17.50v (not stabilized, steadily climbs) anode +51v cathode
D112 +17.50v (not stabilized, steadily climbs) anode +51v cathode
D117 -51v anode +16.20v (not stabilized, steadily climbs) cathode
D118 -51v anode +16.10v (not stabilized, steadily climbs) cathode
 
Last edited:
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