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SX-880 relay clicking with change in home lighting

mordechai said:
Is there a solution to that?
Click to expand...

Possibly a "quality" surge/spike power conditioner between the receiver and it`s plugged into outlet with it`s internal filtering effect "might thwart" the dimmed LED lights noise getting into the receiver.

120 volt LED light bulbs can & do generate a butt load of back fed power line noise on their own, and with the dimmer`s additional noise might be severe enough to pollute that AC lines circuit bad enough to upset the receivers protection circuit..

Though I have no experience with powering homes with solar/battery/inverter power generation, I effectively power line surge/spike/filter the AC lines feeding all my house`s 7 room`s A/V systems to minimize the chance of power line surges/spikes + noise from damaging and also interfering with the sound and video equipment`s performance, being my house has been LED bulb converted (with some on dimmers) for nearly a decade, with the exception of the two garages with their ceiling mounted fluorescent lighting, which also generates a lot of power line back fed and EMI radiated noise..

And by doing so I haven`t experienced any noise, or interference when any lights, HVAC, fridge, etc. engage or cycle on or off.

Might be something to try, mordechai, as long as your off the grid AC electrical system has a good earth grounding for maximum power circuit filter effectiveness.

Good luck with resolving your issues, Sir.
 
mordechai said:
Is there a solution to that?
Click to expand...
I fought this demon for weeks on an SX-980 that I was working on in my shop at work. In the end, it turned out to be noise induced into the power lines by frequency drives for the rooftop intake and exhaust fans. I tried different line filters, UPSs and variacs - all to no avail. The only that that worked to stop the relay cycling is running the main power through a DBT. A DBT is a dim bulb tester, which is basically wiring and old-school incandescent bulb in series with your receiver. Mine is shown in my member photo at left. The problem is, you shouldn't operate the receiver at any higher volume while connected to one of these, as voltages start to drop and possible damage to the receiver can occur. However, if you just want to test this method to see if it eliminates the relay cycling, it's fine - as long as you keep the volume control at a minimum (if you increase the volume past a certain point - you'll see the bulb start to glow - you'll want to back off at that point).

The higher-wattage X80 Pioneer receiver, the more this problem rears its ugly head. In fact, I can't stop anything higher than an SX-880 from cycling (your results may vary) using the DBT. I'd use a 100-watt bulb for this. Again, its not a fix - more of a test. Mark mentioned boosting the AC voltage to the PA3004 but, with a DBT connected, you're reducing the AC voltage to everything - including the PA3004. Maybe that's the key? I don't know. Light dimmers are notoriously noisy electrically-speaking and you appear to have the problem narrowed down to the lights. I don't know how many dimmers you have, but is replacing them with regular switches an option?
 
Brivan said:
I fought this demon for weeks on an SX-980 that I was working on in my shop at work. In the end, it turned out to be noise induced into the power lines by frequency drives for the rooftop intake and exhaust fans. I tried different line filters, UPSs and variacs - all to no avail. The only that that worked to stop the relay cycling is running the main power through a DBT. A DBT is a dim bulb tester, which is basically wiring and old-school incandescent bulb in series with your receiver. Mine is shown in my member photo at left. The problem is, you shouldn't operate the receiver at any higher volume while connected to one of these, as voltages start to drop and possible damage to the receiver can occur. However, if you just want to test this method to see if it eliminates the relay cycling, it's fine - as long as you keep the volume control at a minimum (if you increase the volume past a certain point - you'll see the bulb start to glow - you'll want to back off at that point).

The higher-wattage X80 Pioneer receiver, the more this problem rears its ugly head. In fact, I can't stop anything higher than an SX-880 from cycling (your results may vary) using the DBT. I'd use a 100-watt bulb for this. Again, its not a fix - more of a test. Mark mentioned boosting the AC voltage to the PA3004 but, with a DBT connected, you're reducing the AC voltage to everything - including the PA3004. Maybe that's the key? I don't know. Light dimmers are notoriously noisy electrically-speaking and you appear to have the problem narrowed down to the lights. I don't know how many dimmers you have, but is replacing them with regular switches an option?
Click to expand...

Success! Now we're getting somewhere!!

This absolutely alleviates the problem. Built a crude version of your DBT today and the relay cycling stopped! I couldn't be happier. But as you said, it isn't as much a fix as it is a test. So now what is the permanent solution? I have about 6 dimmers throughout the house and definitely prefer not switch them out if there is another option.

And why exactly is the DBT filtering out the noise from the dimmers? I'm pretty surprised when noise filters, variacs, and voltage regulators didn't do it.
 
Perhaps fitting a common mode choke in the power feed to the receiver? Or just some plain old surge protection with line fitering capacitors. Mostly like what a lot of white goods such as washing machines and dishwashers have fitted to their line input. It's usually a Y style of safety capacitors. an X cap going Between Live and Neutral and then two Y caps going from live to earth and neutral to earth. All of that after a common mode choke.

Failing that, I'm guessing that the LED dimmers are already on a separate electrical circuit in the house? Otherwise I'd be trying that next - making sure the socket the receiver runs from is on a different wiring circuit (and maybe a more distant one) to the LED lights.

Getting a bit more expensive... maybe an isolation transformer would help. It all depends on what frequency those codes are being transmitted. If we could know or see that, we might be able to put together some sort of line filter specifically tuned to block those specific signals.
 
mordechai said:
Success! Now we're getting somewhere!!

This absolutely alleviates the problem. Built a crude version of your DBT today and the relay cycling stopped! I couldn't be happier. But as you said, it isn't as much a fix as it is a test. So now what is the permanent solution? I have about 6 dimmers throughout the house and definitely prefer not switch them out if there is another option.

And why exactly is the DBT filtering out the noise from the dimmers? I'm pretty surprised when noise filters, variacs, and voltage regulators didn't do it.
Click to expand...
Mark the Fixer @markthefixer suggested decreasing the value of R403 in an effort to increase the AC voltage to the PA3004 IC. One thing the DBT is slightly reduce the AC voltage going to the receiver. Perhaps increasing the value of R403 to reduce the amount of AC voltage at the PA3004 would make a difference. I would wait for Mark offer his thoughts on this.
 
another effect is the inductance of the lamp in the dbt, it could be blocking the frequencies that are interfering - that was part of my research.

It might be as simple as an inductor at the AC input of the pa3004.
Or an LC filter (same place) which more or less ignores 60Hz, but is a brick to higher frequencies.
 
can't hurt to try... R404 is grounded, so put it across R404
edit: fixed after xlbee's post...

has to be non-polarized. polarization not likely on 0.1 or 0.01 uf caps.
 
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Mark, I was at the hospital yesterday and couldn't look at the schematic. Looks like r403 and r404 form a voltage divider where r403 is connected to AC, r404 is connected to ground and the center of the divider is connected to the PA3004. That would mean the cap should go from the center of the voltage divider to ground (across r404, not r403) to bleed high frequencies to ground. Have I got that right?
 
Brivan said:
Another possibility that I've been curious about: some other Audiokarma members have worked up a replacement assembly for the PA3004 IC here: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pa3004-chip-pcb-substitute.950028/
I'd like to know if replacing the IC with one of these assemblies would eliminate the relay cycling problem.
Click to expand...

That's worth a try - we know exactly how that one works.

we can also try crossed diodes to ground, to limit the input amplitude as per that thread and it's IC data
it could be an overdrive artifact.


here's a replacement pa3004 board into a SX-980, should be close...
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/sx980-with-pa3004-chip-pcb-substitute.994636/
 
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I wanted to reopen this thread, see if anyone had an opinion on a UPC battery backup? If there is a model that outputs power from the battery while power IS still connected, that would be ideal. I plugged the sx-880 into a battery backup I have, and if I simulate a loss of power (by unplugging the UPC), the relay stops clicking. But if I plug it in, it appears whatever is causing the problem passes right through the UPC.
 
sometimes you can find good second hand but with failed batteries . i got mine at a fairly low price a good few years back and the batteries actually worked for a good time . it's a lot bigger than you need and is actually 2.8kw and 48v battery power . i used to use it for setting up amplifiers etc as our mains power is unstable .
 
xlbee said:
Did you try putting a cap across R404?
Click to expand...

no, unfortunately I don’t know how to do that or what exactly that means. Can you point me to a basic step by step guide for beginners? I’ve never fiddled with anything like this before.
 
Have you tried different brands of LED bulbs? When I put LEDs in my garage they interfered with the FM radio making it unlistenable. I changed to a different brand of LED and the interference stopped.
 
satellite65 said:
Have you tried different brands of LED bulbs? When I put LEDs in my garage they interfered with the FM radio making it unlistenable. I changed to a different brand of LED and the interference stopped.
Click to expand...

I have not, although I have tried different switches. Changing the bulb isn't practical as the driver and assembly is buried in the floor, which I do have access too, but was designed with a cavity just big enough to fit these lights.
 
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