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System Synergy Equation

bluesky pretty much nails it (post #13)

"Synergy" is the common relationship found within the "chain of components" wherein all are functioning at top performance within their abilities and the quality of build is also pretty much the same.

The listening environment is also of import, as with all factors of speaker arrangement and platform for audio gear, but these are extenuating factors found outside the system itself. These factors can enhance or distract from the listening experience.

Valid testing is yet another area of appreciation, and difficult to agree on the end results.

And, all the above observations are basically a subjective evaluation, save the others who objectively measure with electronic equipment who determine the ultimate best sound.

Finally, there's the ability to hear, and this varies from person to person as to what is better sound.

FWIW

Q
 
Honestly, if you need an equation to know whether or not your system has "synergy" then there is something wrong. Just use your ears. Does it sound good? I have a multitude of different components in my bedroom and it sounds good. Carver, Fisher, MCS (one made by Technics and another made by NEC), Technics (an EQ along with a Panasonic portable CD player), and JVC... All of these components hooked up sound very good, hence there is synergy.

Also this whole thing about having to spend X amount on this or that is a bit ridiculous these days since there is so much used equipment out there that can be had for a song. I only have one piece of equipment that I bought new still in the system(s). Actually there are two systems in the bedroom and one gets used more for music while the other one gets used mainly for TV. That original piece is the Carver C-9. Also I have a pair of speakers that I am using that I bought a two way kit off of Ebay and installed it in some Celestion Ditton 110 cabinets.

So I don't believe in equations. I believe in listening and doing what my ears tell me to do. Buy quality stuff and hook it up. That is where it starts.

And of course I am not chasing that last one percent either. I am not trying to reproduce a concert hall in my bedroom. I live in an apartment so that is not happening. Each to his own...

Are there certain pieces of equipment that may sound better when driven by certain other pieces of equipment. Sure there are. And that is where one's ears come in...
 
motorstereo said:
There's several videos of measurements on shunyata cables showing noise reduction. I'm not going to derail the thread topic so you can google it and see for yourself. One particular one that comes to mind done in a recording studio......."a 10 db reduction in the noise floor across all frequencies".
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Reference. 10 db noise improvement is impossible.
 
Thunderbox said:
This is nothing but a third person story. There is not a bit of proof or measurement to substantiate the claims. That is because it isn't true. Of course they say it's great.
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Of course it doesn't meet your standards even though the measurements are posted as it goes against your thoughts on the subject. I expected nothing less.
FWIW I'll take his word, credentials and posted measurements over some fellow saying "it's impossible".
It took me all of 2-3 minutes to pick that particular one from the several that are posted. I won't be posting any more as I've already derailed this thread enough answering your question.
Mods: sorry for the thread derail. Back to system synergy.
 
Thunderbox said:
Reference. 10 db noise improvement is impossible.
Click to expand...
The problem here, and he does mention it, is that at -108 dB, the noise generated by cabling is well below audibility.

Then he talks of eq, etc, adding as much as 20 dB. That may well be, but at -108 dB, the cabling is not adding measurably to this noise which is generated within the actual pieces of equipment being inserted into the chain.
 
toddalin said:
Have you ever looked at the frequency response of a piece of electronic gear as compared to that of a speaker? While quality electronics remain relatively smooth regardless of maker or model (<+-1 dB across the audio range), speakers are all over the place and price seems to have little bearing.

And knowing better, your formula would be???
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The issue with your line of thinking here is that all the numbers, including FR are measured into a purely resistive load. With a poorly designed amplifier that may look wonderful on paper, the speaker load can act like an equalizer. Gone is your pretty picture.

I use the formula that works. For me. I have been, value wise, off kilter, both ways, many times. But I'm north of 45 years in the game, and I don't normally buy new gear.

Some things just don't like each other.
 
jayvis said:
As is proven by this thread, synergy in the audio world is purely subjective and will never be acceptably defined. :smoke:
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Of course it's subjective. I don't buy my gear to please you. I might hate a combo you love or vice versa. I've gone down many rabbit holes over the years. More successes than failures, but often things I grew tired of. I thought they were great, until they weren't
 
motorstereo said:
Of course it doesn't meet your standards even though the measurements are posted as it goes against your thoughts on the subject. I expected nothing less.
FWIW I'll take his word, credentials and posted measurements over some fellow saying "it's impossible".
It took me all of 2-3 minutes to pick that particular one from the several that are posted. I won't be posting any more as I've already derailed this thread enough answering your question.
Mods: sorry for the thread derail. Back to system synergy.
Click to expand...
Normally when you ask for measurements it's from someone other than the manufacturer. But hey if you are happy so am I.
 
toddalin said:
The problem here, and he does mention it, is that at -108 dB, the noise generated by cabling is well below audibility.

Then he talks of eq, etc, adding as much as 20 dB. That may well be, but at -108 dB, the cabling is not adding measurably to this noise which is generated within the actual pieces of equipment being inserted into the chain.
Click to expand...
It is easier to be fooled than to be convinced you have been.
 
toddalin said:
The problem here, and he does mention it, is that at -108 dB, the noise generated by cabling is well below audibility.

Then he talks of eq, etc, adding as much as 20 dB. That may well be, but at -108 dB, the cabling is not adding measurably to this noise which is generated within the actual pieces of equipment being inserted into the chain.
Click to expand...
The effect of different cables is also well beyond audibility. It can't be measured.
 
toddalin said:
The problem here is that when it actually comes to the actual sound (ignoring room treatment), it is more like:
<3% - amplification
>90% - speakers
<5% - source components
<2% - cabling and surge suppression
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:thumbsup:

An old Physics friend told me,

"A unit whose function is to change one form of energy into another faithfully has the most difficult task — and can have the biggest impact on the overall sound."

So things like cartridges (static potential to kinetic stylus movement, then finally to active electrical) and speakers (active electrical to sound pressure waves) are some of the usual suspects.
 
Thunderbox said:
Normally when you ask for measurements it's from someone other than the manufacturer. But hey if you are happy so am I.
Click to expand...
Did you watch it? He states at the beginning it's not a paid endorsement.
Also fwiw I happen to own a Shunyata Venom 20 amp cable for my pc and it made no difference to my ears when I swapped it out for the pc's stock cable. I'm not someone that buys something and says it's an upgrade just because I purchased it. Instead I look at things with an open mind and try my very best to be truthful.
Would I lower the noise floor 10db in my rig if I replaced every single cable and spent uber thousands of $$$ on their products? Who knows. What I do know is I won't be finding out first hand at this stage of the game.
 
I'm still curious about how anything the OP described would get "censored" on any site. Maybe someone brought up blind A/B testing. That triggers the "I can hear cables" crowd every time.
Totally onboard with synergy. I have 5 systems in 4 rooms and they are all my favorites depending on my mood that day.
 
I think synergy is a thing but I think it happens, or doesn't, for technical reasons.

I like the idea that there's also some additional 'mystical' aspect to it but I can't really beleive that.

I agree it does seem that way sometimes.
 
Make that 6 systems. I forgot my car. Easily my worst system, but who doesn't turn up a favorite song to 11 and enjoy true synergy on a trip to the supermarket or home depot.
 
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