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tech is working on my fisher 800c to fix it but a few questions?

tonyg88

Super Member
He said hes gonna fix the bias but I said someone told me ( on this forum) that I should do these mods....

1.) replace the 4 coupling caps with .1uf/630V caps (OP Choice of cap)
2.) replace 300k grid resistors with 200K R 1/2Watt.
3.) install 10oHm 1/4W resistors to ground @ pin 5 on each output tube.
4.) install 100oHm 1/4W screen stabilization resistors to jumper @ pin 3&8 on each tube.
5.) install 10K variable resistor (pot) in BIAS POWER lead to facillitate some adjustment in the Bias circuit. IBAM should follow soon.

He wrote this back to me....

"

I can do the things you requested, my question is why? The original design of the 800C was done by the best of audio engineers (Avery Fisher).
#'s 1, 2, and 5 change this design in a rather big way. I do not recommend this.
# 3 and 5 are not bad ideas. I was going to install the 10ohm resistors from pin 5 to gnd.
If you want the 10K bias adjust pot add 20 to my estimate to make it 165 total.
(It is a really bad idea to mess with the pot after it is set without measuring the plate current)
"


So he correct on what he says? What do these changes actually do?
 
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I think 1 and 2 are to accomodate the use of modern production 7591's.

About 5, it will permit to adjust the bias (considering you measure it at the 10 ohms added resistors).
 
I hope your tech has a boatload of 7591's he can replace in the 800 if he leaves the BIAS as Stock. It's too "hot" for today's tubes with the increased line voltage and todays' new tubes can't handle an 800C Stock.

1,2,&5 allow newer 7591EH and JJ's to be able to live comfortably with the 800C. Grid resistance on the 7591's was specified by the TUBE MANUFACTURERS as no higher than 220K or so. 300K is TOO "HOT" and causes Accellerated tube wear to the point the OUTPUT Tubes would be shot within a year or so of everyday use. (Ask your tech to look up the 7591 in his RCA TUBE MANUAL!!!) Changing the cap and resistor values will "cool down" (my choice of words here) the tube to a reasonable level and allow extended life of the old tubes and allow the newer tubes to be useful for a longer time. Dave Gillespie can explain this in technical terms a lot better.

$20 for a pot is a bit high I think when he's already in there doing other things to the circuit. It better be a multiturn bournes pot if so.

the screen resistor mod can be researched at this link. Dave Gillespie did the article.
www.tronola.com/A_New_Look_At_An_Old_​Friend_Rev0.pdf

These mod's are not a flash in the pan. These are proven, effective modifications that allow these units to run tubes made today without excess stress (due to the lower manufacturing tolerances of todays tubes) and older tubes to last longer. I've been running my 800c for almost a year with all of the mods and the OUTPUTS show no signs of emission drop, and GM's within 1% of when they were new. The tubes have been run on a SANSUI 1000A and the 800C for the past 3 years and both have the had the above mods done to them. I'm just one example.


Larry
 
The recommendations you're listing are just that, recommendations, and your tech is correct in his statements. (And, btw, he's really inexpensive!)

The original coupling caps are 0.047 uF, not 0.1, so the recommendation is an increase of over 100%. The recommendation for the grid resistors is usually 220K or so. These two changes are usually stated as being a good idea for two reasons: first, in order to be a better match for current production power tubes, and to take a bit of the load off the 12AX7's that feed this circuit.

The addition of the 10 ohm resistors makes it much, much simpler to measure the plate current on the output tubes to make sure you're running them in their best operating range. The 100 ohm screen resistors are much less frequently recommended. Those are much more a matter of opinion.

The addition of the 10K pot makes it easier to set the bias voltage and thus the plate current. Your tech is also correct when he says you need to stay away from touching that pot if you don't have the ability and understanding of what you're doing. Turning it the wrong way can cause you to burn up all four output tubes.

Basically, he sounds like he knows what he's doing. Share these comments with him and see what he says. I'm always interested in opinions.
 
The recommendations you're listing are just that, recommendations, and your tech is correct in his statements. (And, btw, he's really inexpensive!)

2nd that really inexpensive!

He didn't comment on #4 - the grid stoppers, not that it's absolutely necessary but does add some stability to the outputs.

I ran my 400 for a couple of years with the original .047uF couplers and 330K resistors with original bias circuit (rebuilt) full stop - mostly all day everyday - and I'm still amazed at how strong those output tubes are. Mind you, the power supply was completely rebuilt - cans and all. To me that's most important - rebuilt power supply.
 
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Thanks everyone for your replies..... thanks larry for going into detail! I felt ackward telling an experienced tech on what to do because I dont know anything about this stuff... Here is what he wrote back to me


"Tony,
I'll give all the mods a try except the #4 (screen stabilization resistors). The other mods do make sense after looking at the new tube data. I will set the bias by checking the plate current across the 10 ohm resistors and you should be good to go.
The power supply board is fine. There were 2 burned up resistors on the chassis below the board (that's what you were smelling).
The end 7591 that had a fireworks show IS bad. It has less than 1/2 the emission of the other 3 tubes so you will need 1 new 7591.
I stand by my original estimate to do all this at 195 and that will get it shipped back to you as well.
I promise you that my rates are actually lower than anyone else that does this type of work...

he later sent this :

I took a really good look at the mods. They do seem to make good sense, I like to stay open minded to doing the best job possible.
I may be able to install a current meter so you can actually measure and adjust the bias on the receiver with just a flip of a switch.
I'll update you tomorrow...
Mike

"
 
Hi everyone. I am the tech that is working on tonyg88's Fisher 800C.
It does have a new SDS Labs Power supply board installed. Tony is running EH 7591's.
All the small electrolytics and the coupling caps have been replaced with original values.
The end output tube cooked...Bias is sitting at -17.5V in it's present state.
Here is what I want to do to make it sable, sound good ,and make the tubes last a long time... (Suggestions from Larry Derouin and others that I have seen on this and other sites)
1.) replace the 4 coupling caps with .1uf/630V caps (OP Choice of cap)
2.) replace 300k grid resistors with 200K R 1/2Watt.
3.) install 10oHm 1/4W resistors to ground @ pin 5 on each output tube.
4.) install 100oHm 1/4W screen stabilization resistors to jumper @ pin 3&8 on each tube. ( I'll give them a try)
5.) install 10K variable resistor (pot) in BIAS POWER lead to facillitate some adjustment in the Bias circuit.
6) Install a current meter on the chassis to look at and adjust the bias current.
Question: What are the opinins and reasons out there for a good bias current setting for EH or JJ 7591's?
7) Replace phono amp coupling caps with original 0.022uf orignal value (any reason for changing cap value here?
Any reason to change 12AX7A Preamp coupling cap value (I already replaced then with 0.047uf 620V caps).
I want to make sure that when I send this back to Tony that it is rock solid.
I have restored a whole buch of these receivers but most of them are running NOS Westinghouse or RCA type 7591's.
I have been doing this a long time but these receivers are 50 years old now. Newer tubes are not the same as NOS, and I need to stay open minded to the vast experience that is available.
Any other suggestions? Links?
Thanks!
Mike
 
Hi everyone. I am the tech that is working on tonyg88's Fisher 800C.
It does have a new SDS Labs Power supply board installed. Tony is running EH 7591's.
All the small electrolytics and the coupling caps have been replaced with original values.
The end output tube cooked...Bias is sitting at -17.5V in it's present state.
Here is what I want to do to make it sable, sound good ,and make the tubes last a long time... (Suggestions from Larry Derouin and others that I have seen on this and other sites)
1.) replace the 4 coupling caps with .1uf/630V caps (OP Choice of cap)
2.) replace 300k grid resistors with 200K R 1/2Watt.
3.) install 10oHm 1/4W resistors to ground @ pin 5 on each output tube.
4.) install 100oHm 1/4W screen stabilization resistors to jumper @ pin 3&8 on each tube. ( I'll give them a try)
5.) install 10K variable resistor (pot) in BIAS POWER lead to facillitate some adjustment in the Bias circuit.
6) Install a current meter on the chassis to look at and adjust the bias current.
Question: What are the opinins and reasons out there for a good bias current setting for EH or JJ 7591's?
7) Replace phono amp coupling caps with original 0.022uf orignal value (any reason for changing cap value here?
Any reason to change 12AX7A Preamp coupling cap value (I already replaced then with 0.047uf 620V caps).
I want to make sure that when I send this back to Tony that it is rock solid.
I have restored a whole buch of these receivers but most of them are running NOS Westinghouse or RCA type 7591's.
I have been doing this a long time but these receivers are 50 years old now. Newer tubes are not the same as NOS, and I need to stay open minded to the vast experience that is available.
Any other suggestions? Links?
Thanks!
Mike

Thanks for signing up and replying to this thread :thmbsp: I didnt know you were also working on the phono preamp thanks cuz I use that more then any other media :thmbsp:
 
Preamp

Yes Tony the phono preamp caps could use replacing as well.
I've actually been a member here for a long time, I just don't post very often.
 
Mike; I've felt (as do more than a few guys here) that 30ma to 34ma is an ideal range for the 7591EH's. Current based on plate voltage is more important than the bias voltage setting as spec'ed by FISHER. That voltage was spec'ed at the time to run them as "hot" as possible to "beat the competition" in the wattage race. Too many 7591's died an early death that way. So now we learned that we can "increase" the bias voltage and still have a good sounding and stable running rig. I've had mine as high as 38ma (based on Plate voltages and across the 10oHm resistors) but all it did as far as I could tell is just heat the room a bit better. Conversely the low end with decent sound is about 26-27ma. Lower than that and the SQ drops off. My 7591EH's have roughly 2000 hours on them and they have been rock solid steady for almost 3 years. Everyone of the mods listed above are in my 800C. It runs @ 32ma per tube. Based on my plate voltages I'm pushing 15W per tube (about 77% of max dissipation), which is as high as I'm comfortable with. My bias voltage @ 32ma is right about -20V on the EH's (last time I checked a couple months ago).



Most of us are inveterate tinkerers. If you look around at the 400 mods you'll see an individual Bias adjustment mod (IBAM). Granted it's homebuilt, but it works better than the 10K resistor. It also works in the 500C and 800C without modification. (I've put it in both a 400 and an 800C). the 10K resistor is good for someone who has a quad of good matching tubes and wants an easy way to set it and forget it. The IBAM is useful with unmatched tubes, and you can match them up this way. I have tighter tolerance requirements for mine. With the parts from Radioshack for the IBAM I can set all my tubes to within .1ma across the board. I've got test points for all the tubes and can access the IBAM Module without opening it up. The module cost about $12.00 in parts from R.S. or cheaper if got from Mouser as part of a larger order.

As for #7 your post. No need to change any other values. Upgrading to a good stable film cap will do wonders for these units. I mix Mallory axials, Cornell Dublier DME's and O.D.'s mainly based on physical size. The only "boutique" caps in my 800C are the 4 outputs, which are K40Y Russian PIO's. (.1uf/630V). A lot better sounding than OD's to my ears. They tend to be large, and with a metal casing require heatshrink on them.

Don't forget the 1uf/350V lytic on the MPX. Other than that one, leave the MPX alone.

I just realized I'm basically duplicating our PM's. But someone down the road will benefit from this too.



Larry
 
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The only preamp fix I know of is to replicate the "PEC" with individual components on a small breadboard. The PEC is a "Packaged electronic component" that has caps and resistors in it. Has between 3 and 10 leads or legs. Upgrading to Silvermica caps, and 1% resistors will tighten it up some over the old out of spec components. This is something that can be done down the line.

My recommendation is to let Mike do the current mods/upgrades, then listen to it for a while and get a baseline sound out of it. Later, You can make the boards yourself and then add them/it (combine two PEC's worth of components on one board) and install it. Fairly simple to do.

Larry
 
Fisher Mods cont...

Thanks Larry,
Yes I've seen the IBAM mod in this forum. That may be the way to go. I'll discuss it with Tony and see what he wants.
I have some good 0.1uf Orange drop type caps, but I have seen those big metal russian caps on ebay.
I ALLWAYS change that 1uf 350V cap in the MPX unit. Other than that I leave it alone.
I have built some PRC boards in the past for the phono pre-amp. Only out of necessity because one of the legs broke off one of them. Used silver mica and 1% resistors. Sounded nice, but not a really huge difference.
Mike
 
tonyg88,
You're in good hands here.
An alternative to the IBAM mod, if labor time is an issue, is to buy a matched quad of EH 7591s from Jim McShane. He burns in and tests his tubes to what most would consider as accurate as running in an amp. Just my $0.02. No affiliation.
 
tonyg88,
You're in good hands here.
An alternative to the IBAM mod, if labor time is an issue, is to buy a matched quad of EH 7591s from Jim McShane. He burns in and tests his tubes to what most would consider as accurate as running in an amp. Just my $0.02. No affiliation.

Thanks :)
 
It's good enough for me. But then I can't hear anything over 13K Right and over 10K Left. Too many sirens while working all those years in EMS and Police. The shorter the signal path, the least amount of connections, the less chance of interference, and spurious sound. I would only use an outboard pre if the amp or receiver I was using doesn't have an onboard.

Larry
 
It's good enough for me. But then I can't hear anything over 13K Right and over 10K Left. Too many sirens while working all those years in EMS and Police. The shorter the signal path, the least amount of connections, the less chance of interference, and spurious sound. I would only use an outboard pre if the amp or receiver I was using doesn't have an onboard.

Larry

The highs on it sound fine to me it was the low mid range ( where alot of disco basslines lay ) that was lacking to my ears maybe the phono recap will fix this though
 
If I may, here is some detail behind the recommendations for these modifications:

1. "Reducing the grid resistors to 220K": The published maximum DC resistance for grid #1 of 7591 class tubes is 300K (by RCA, Sylvania, and others). This is the maximum value allowable when the tube is operated under conditions of maximum dissipation -- which many designs nearly did -- so yes, using 330K is using a value that is right on the ragged edge.

The reason for the maximum resistance specification is to limit the value of reverse grid current voltage that can build up under conditions of maximum dissipation (read that, maximum heat). But there are other concerns that can aggravate this issue as well. Higher line voltages push the heater voltages higher, which means that today, even more heat is generated. The basic concern is that excessive heat (however it's generated) can cause cathode material to boil off and deposit itself onto the grid. This means the grid has now become a partial emitter, with any current flow it provides developing a voltage across the grid resistor that is opposite in polarity to the negative voltage applied to the bottom of the grid resistor. This negative grid current voltage then works against the negative bias voltage, causing the tube to conduct more current, generating even more heat, boiling off more cathode material, and ultimately causing thermal runaway. The production of gas comes into play with these events as well to further aggravate the issue. Therefore, to help control this condition, a maximum DC resistance is specified for the control grid to limit the amount of ill effects that can be caused by reverse grid current.

As a result, with the high temps that these units typically run at inside their cases, and importantly, because of today's higher line voltages, and because the tubes are biased "on" pretty hard to begin with, it makes very good sense to pull the value of the grid resistors back a little to help minimize the chances of developing any significant reverse grid current voltage, and the possible thermal runaway that can produce -- and this is even before the quality of modern production tubes is considered!

2. "Double the value of the coupling caps": This has nothing to do with loading on the driver stage, in fact, lowering the value of the grid resistors actually increases the load on the driver stage. The reason the cap values are increased is to keep nearly the same time constant in the RC coupling circuit between the driver stage and the output stage with the new lower value grid resistors installed.

3. "Install 10 Ohm cathode resistors": This makes for the easiest way to monitor output tube current draw, and therefore allows for the easiest way to set the bias and balance of the output stage (if such controls exist), or check to see that matched output tubes are in fact matched. These resistors are typically used for balancing currents under quiescent conditions, but can also be used to check for balance under dynamic conditions if the proper equipment is available. Balancing output tube quiescent current maximizes OPT low frequency power handling ability (by minimizing core saturation), while balancing dynamic currents minimizes overall distortion.

4. "Installing a 10K bias pot": Modern tubes are manufactured with far less precision than the best tubes from yesteryear were, and so, fixed bias amplifiers operating with tubes of modern manufacture on higher line voltages will usually need some adjustment from the original fixed setting a manufacturer provided. Installing some type of adjustable control is therefore highly desirable, and adding a DC balancing feature to that is even better. Installing these controls so that they cannot be inadvertently altered from their setting goes hand in hand with the installation of any such controls.

5. "Installing 100 ohm Screen Stability Resistors": So many folks have posted on various forums -- from all degrees of experience -- how everything is as it should be, but the output tubes will arc for no reason that they can determine. How expensive does that get when output tubes can be ruined in an instant?

Long ago, I determined that these arcs were in fact occurring from the screen grid. Many pieces of old hifi gear were designed with very little resistance in the screen circuit, which usually didn't present too many problems as the power supply caps of the day had much higher ESR values, which tended to help keep things stable. Even at that however, some designs (Eico HF-89 for example) were simply notorious for arcing output tubes because of the larger overall power supply capacitance values they employed.

Today it is all too common, with the installation of new power supply caps that have much lower ESR values, and which are so often increased in size as well (all installed on new drop in power supply boards), to have all manner of output tube arcing events occur, which leaves folks puzzled because it just never used to do that before. New manufacture tubes got the lion's share of the blame -- until even NOS tubes were arcing in these refurbished pieces of equipment as well.

With some form of transient trigger (music, an open ground, whatever), the lower ESR value caps can set up incredibly strong oscillations in what is effectively a tank circuit that's formed with the screen grid, and can cause an arc at any time. Installation of 100 ohm Screen Stability resistors (for 7591 class tubes) stops this problem virtually every time. I've never had anyone tell me that installation of these resistors did not stop the problem. Personally, I've never had an output tube arc event in nearly twenty years now, where before I had boxes of blown tubes until I could determine what the cause was, and develop an appropriate cure. In equipment such as this Fisher represents, it is very cheap insurance against such events, and produces no audible or measurable difference in performance.

Hopefully, this will help with an understanding of why these modifications can make such worthwhile improvements in so many of these wonderful instruments. With some components being virtually unobtainable now, minimizing any damaging events that might occur helps all of us to enjoy this equipment even more.

Good luck with your receiver!

Dave
 
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