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Technics SL-1200 series as an audiophile turntable?

Bigerik said:
Having had a P7 and 1200's, I think the limiting factor was your Denon. The Rega responds much better to higher end cartridges than does a stock Technics. Put a thousand dollar cartridge on both of them, and then you will hear a huge difference.
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Lets see. Rega P7 - $2695. Technics 1200 - $400 or so. Why even bother with the comparison. Of course I would expect the Rega to have some distinct sonic advantages over the Technics.

However, I suspect I could nullify some of those differences by upgrading to the Technics 1210 M5G and installing the fluid damper. Even then, we're talking $2695 versus a $750. Do you really think that someone with $2700 plus more for cartridge is going to even be looking in the $400 - $750 range for a competing turntable with the P7, such that there'd be some merit to discussing the relative advantages of a Benz Micro Glider on each table? How many Technics owners are getting full enjoyment out of their turntables without doubling down on the cost of a cartridge?

This line of discussion strikes me as a bit silly. However, I do use, from time to time, an Ortofon Kontrapunkt A on my Technics 1210 M5G, and it sounds terrific.
 
"Why even bother with the comparision?" because, let's be honest, something that rega makes for $2500+ should be compared against the 1200. Why, because the 1200 is a reference- A reference for price vs performance. A reference because it is still in production after 30 years without significant change. A reference becuase it costs less in real terms than it ever did. A reference because it outlasts practically every other turntable made. Actually, I am interested, what performance criteria in particular does the Rega outperform the Technics anyway?
I have owned both Regas and Technics and many, many other turntables. The ONLY turntables I use now are Technics. The Regas were funny, wiggly, cheap and fiddly. They didn't sound good. They didn't keep correct speed. You couldn't use a record cleaner on them without stopping the platter. Simply 1200s are better, regardless of the cartridge you strap on, regardless of the music, regardless of the room.
 
Now let's pause for a minute and imagine that the good folks at Technics got tired of the ragging they constantly receive and said... "Screw it. They don't like the 1200. Fine, let's make a table better than the 1200! Let's make a Technics TT that costs $2700. Let's make a Technics TT that is $2300 better than an SL-1200MK2!!" Good friggin' night... If they did that, comparing it to a P7 would be laughable and extremely embarassing for just about any other table out there today that costs $2700. That turntable would wipe the floor with almost anything.

Maybe they already did: SP-10MKIII :dunno: Can you imagine, better than a MKIII in compact "consumer" form. :drool::jawdrop::drool:
 
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Yep, dead right. The resources Matsushita had dedicated to consumer electronics were more than every tinpot turntable manufacturere added up times ten. Poor old Rega research pottered along with a high tech 'zinc casting' wow... The only manufacturer with real 'cred' was Scale Model Engineering- yes, SME. They actually built a beautiful, genuinely engineered product. Maybe not as good on the test bench, but cred in spades.
 
I am a little reluctant to this compairisons of different TTs. Firstly I am doubtful that it´s really possible to do it in an objective way, secondly I feel the compairing, at least sonically, should be done against a reference TT.
The reference TT being, sort of, state of the art TT.
Compairing the 1200 with a Rega or a Project or whatever, does that really tell us anything? I mean besides that some will like one the most, and some will like another one better.
/gusten
 
gusten said:
I am a little reluctant to this compairisons of different TTs. Firstly I am doubtful that it´s really possible to do it in an objective way, secondly I feel the compairing, at least sonically, should be done against a reference TT.
The reference TT being, sort of, state of the art TT.
Compairing the 1200 with a Rega or a Project or whatever, does that really tell us anything? I mean besides that some will like one the most, and some will like another one better.
/gusten
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It serves no point. Comparing a Technics to a Rega is like comparing an apple to an orange. They both are fruit and taste good, they both make pretty good juice, but have a different flavor by design. The Technics and the Rega have evolved in two different directions. The Technics has evolved with the DJ in mind. Though its roots as a hifi table can still be capitalized upon for home use, Technics/Panasonic would tell you that the evolutionary path of the 1200 series has not focused on home use.

Rega has no such baggage, and can focus exclusively on the home user. Due to cost constraints and/or philosophy, the drive system is quite good, but does have shortcomings. However, the design of the table is focused purely on ability to produce music of the highest fidelity for the price.

The Technics serves my purposes today, and does a very good job for me making great music. I've have in house rim drive, belt drive and direct drive tables. The DD tables are my preferred tables in the price range I can afford, as the speed stability makes up for some other shortcomings in this price range. I can also attack the shortcomings with tweaks that minimize the weaknesses in the DD tables.

If I had the budget, I'd be looking at a VPI Reference Scoutmaster or or maybe an Avid table. But that's not likely to happen any time soon, and maybe not in this lifetime. So, for my money, the Technics is the best bet.

Its as simple as that. AK is not about the "mine is better than yours" game. Its about celebrating our collective interest in gear and music, and being happy for the other guy whether he's got a modest system or the best that money can buy. I'll leave the mental masturbation about comparing tables in radically different price ranges to other forums. Let's just be glad we have a resource like the 1200 series that can give us a taste of the best that analog has to offer for a relatively modest cost of entry.
 
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I'm not mocking other tables; not my intention. I'm just saying, 6 to 7 times the amount, of the type of research, design and engineering that was originally put into the SP/SL TOTL tables would be........... ...actually, I have no words to descibe what I would think that would sound like. :D I wouldn't (or couldn't) pay for a Garrard 301, Thorens Prestige, Goldmund Reference, etc. ...but, I'd take one in a heartbeat... for the coolness factor alone.
 
jdwk said:
:yippy::yippy:so the final word is.........yes the technics 1200 is an audiophile turntable! :yippy: :beerchug:
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AMEN brother!!! AMEN!!

Got my trusty/beautiful/amazing sounding sl-1200 playing as I type. I wouldn't have it any other way.

SLM3Tech said:
Now let's pause for a minute and imagine that the good folks at Technics got tired of the ragging they constantly receive and said... "Screw it. They don't like the 1200. Fine, let's make a table better than the 1200! Let's make a Technics TT that costs $2700. Let's make a Technics TT that is $2300 better than an SL-1200MK2!!" Good friggin' night... If they did that, comparing it to a P7 would be laughable and extremely embarassing for just about any other table out there today that costs $2700. That turntable would wipe the floor with almost anything.

Maybe they already did: SP-10MKIII :dunno: Can you imagine, better than a MKIII in compact "consumer" form. :drool::jawdrop::drool:
Click to expand...

I can't even comprehend how amazing that table would be. as you said, it WOULD mop the floor with ANYTHING

This 1200 hasn't remained for the most part, untouched except for some minor tweaks for nothing. Technics did something perfect when they made this table. Technics is going by the age old rule of thumb, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and in their case, its worked. I know it feels good knowing this table is going to perform like its brand new, which is awesome in itself, and last for well my life. Its the last table I will ever by. That's the only part of my system I know will remain unchanged for as long as I'm spinning vinyl.
 
This discussion certainly does however highlight the suitability of the Technics SL1200 as a Reference turntable. I for one comoare everything else to one. Realise a reference does not have to be the best of the best etc- it just needs to be a constant easily obtainable benchmark and I can think of no other TT on the planet that could be more suitable.
 
I'm really enjoying this thread. I've never had a high-end turntable. I had a couple of Pioneers, a PL-25 and another one that were good enough for me. Bought them when I was in the Navy during the Viet Nam War.

I used the second one I bought until CD's came out. That was probably in the early 80's. The Pioneer went into storage. A very simple belt drive. Now I was into CD's exclusively. I had seen the Technics SL-1200 in magazines and in stereo shops since they first came out and drooled for one. Friends of mine had Garrards (Zero-100's amongst them), Empires, and Thorens. They all sounded good to us. A turntable was a turntable. The cartridge was the most important element in those days.

But over the years I still desired the Technics. I didn't even know DJ's used them in clubs until maybe the early 90's. Didn't matter to me. If anything it demonstrated what a workhorse the 1200 was. But raising 2 kids made it too expensive to even consider buying. I still was into CD's and bought a Philips CD player/recorder. Oh, and I had been using cassettes since the early 70's and loved that media. Also had a couple of R2R's. Made many tapes from LP's. Still have them today.

Then it was CD to cassette (retired my R2R's). But I kept 90% of my LP's as I thought someday that form would return to the forefront.

Not to mention MiniDisc, which replaced my cassette recordings. But that's another thread!

One must realize I was isolated. I was the only person in my group of friends who cared about a kick-ass system. Others had by now sold their good stuff and went to home theatre. All of them had gotten rid of LP's and TTs, cassettes, R2R's etc. It was sad. Bose ruled.

Where am I going with this? It's hard to say. Eventually, after getting a Computer I discovered AK. It helped me improve my stereo system. I read lots of threads about vinyl, cartridges, cleaning systems, storage, adjustments, tweaks, etc. I was now focused on quality acquirements at yardsales, flea markets, etc. And I knew it was time to return to vinyl. And the SL-1200 was still being manufactured. Amazing!

So I could afford a good used one now. A dream come true! It was like buying an original Cobra or Shelby Mustang. Something I've always wanted but couldn't afford (and can't afford nowdays!).

Sure, if I had a 289 Cobra I could soup it up, but it's a machine that really doesn't need to be. It's stock performance would be amazing to me. Same with the SL-1200 Mk2 I bought.

There are BMW's, Corvettes, Lotus, Porsches, AMG's, etc. out there that can out-perform the older Cobra. But that doesn't make the Cobra a slouch. The SL-1200 is like that, too. It performs. And can give a good run to the higher-end machines. And it's beautiful to look at. It fits right into my system and needs nothing as far as I'm concerned. After 30+ years I have my dream come true :music::yes::music:

Sorry to go on so long! Just had to relate what my feelings are.

Rick
 
Great Post Tapehead47! love zappa too, do you have Apostrophe and overnight sensation in Quad? I always wanted to hear how different the mixes were......
 
Regarding Technics being able to build a table even better than a 1200-

Technics had it's expensive broadcast tables like the SP series, and the 1100 was the TOTL- not the 1200.

And with the SP tables- you could add your own arm.

The armless SL-1200 and SL-1100 (sold as SL-120 and SL-110) could be optioned with a variety of Technics and 2nd party arms- the excellent Technics EPA 100 (and 250 and 500) arm, an SME 3009 II improved arm, an Audio Technica arm, and perhaps a few more.

So, what if Technics re-issued the SP series? Or the SL-1100?

The modern SP-10 would be an ultimate TT- anvil strong, Swiss watch precision, external power supply, etc. The 1100 would be probably all most would really need- a thing of beauty- optional aluminum or rosewood arm board, beefy platter, etc.

I imagine arm options would be SME 309s, even mk Vs, the Rega 301, maybe a Jelco....

...OR maybe Technics would re-issue the original EPA series of arms, with ruby bearings and exquisite performance figures.


And what if they issued the 1200 as an armless TT, an SL-120 MK II from the factory?


There could be great interest in that for the tweak phreaks among us.



So- could Technics make a better SL-1200? Sure- add an external power supply, better feet, stock hinges, a re-introduction to the original EPA arm.


But you can do all that aftermarket, thanks to KAB USA and some luck with finding an original issue EPA arm.
 
Mine both still have the brand new smell they had when I bought them back in 1984! I have the Euro models if you guys did not know that. It is switchable between 120 and 220. It has a Euro plug and an American plug adapter on the end. The other is stored away in a custom case made for the 1200's. I will never switch to anything else, I run them thru a pair of original owner(me) JBL 4312's. I own a Marantz 2325 Rx but use the JBL's and Technics with a VTL tube amp. I also will be getting the matching Marantz 6300 turntable soon.
 
Consider an outboard phono pre-amp

I am running mine with an AT440MLa through an updated Apt-Holman. Every decently engineered album that I play, woah, you are just there. The 1200s are so good out of the box, you it's easy to think they're magic but they really can make the best of a fine pre. I got the 1200 and cartridge so cheaply, I didn't feel bad splurging a little on the pre-amp.

Peter

ledd4u said:
Mine both still have the brand new smell they had when I bought them back in 1984! I have the Euro models if you guys did not know that. It is switchable between 120 and 220. It has a Euro plug and an American plug adapter on the end. The other is stored away in a custom case made for the 1200's. I will never switch to anything else, I run them thru a pair of original owner(me) JBL 4312's. I own a Marantz 2325 Rx but use the JBL's and Technics with a VTL tube amp. I also will be getting the matching Marantz 6300 turntable soon.
Click to expand...
 
thedelihaus said:
Regarding Technics being able to build a table even better than a 1200-

Technics had it's expensive broadcast tables like the SP series, and the 1100 was the TOTL- not the 1200.

And with the SP tables- you could add your own arm.

The armless SL-1200 and SL-1100 (sold as SL-120 and SL-110) could be optioned with a variety of Technics and 2nd party arms- the excellent Technics EPA 100 (and 250 and 500) arm, an SME 3009 II improved arm, an Audio Technica arm, and perhaps a few more.

So, what if Technics re-issued the SP series? Or the SL-1100?

The modern SP-10 would be an ultimate TT- anvil strong, Swiss watch precision, external power supply, etc. The 1100 would be probably all most would really need- a thing of beauty- optional aluminum or rosewood arm board, beefy platter, etc.

I imagine arm options would be SME 309s, even mk Vs, the Rega 301, maybe a Jelco....

...OR maybe Technics would re-issue the original EPA series of arms, with ruby bearings and exquisite performance figures.


And what if they issued the 1200 as an armless TT, an SL-120 MK II from the factory?


There could be great interest in that for the tweak phreaks among us.



So- could Technics make a better SL-1200? Sure- add an external power supply, better feet, stock hinges, a re-introduction to the original EPA arm.


But you can do all that aftermarket, thanks to KAB USA and some luck with finding an original issue EPA arm.
Click to expand...


SL-1100A
W&F 0.03
Rumble 70
Cntrl Sys SERVO
Speed Acc 0.01
Spd Adj 5

SP-10MK3
W&F 0.015
Rumble 92
Cntrl Sys QUARTZ
Speed Acc 0.001
Spd Adj 9.9

SL-1200MK2
W&F 0.025
Rumble 78
Cntrl Sys QUARTZ
Speed Acc 0.002
Spd Adj 8

EDIT: I can see it besting a 1200 in appearance, certainly and the ability to swap arms and the massive platter; but, their specs are identical. Up against a 1200MK2 or a 10MK3, though?

Anyway, I know we can do the upgrades (I have and still am); but, I'm just trying to imagine Technics just going whole hog , no holds barred, no expense spared turntable with as much vigor as they did then with all the new technology available now. This is in that world between worlds where anything and everything can and does happen... like building a better all-around TT than what we've already seen from them. :D
 
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When you get down to it, there is no equal....the SL-1200 will live on...and we will all be proud members of the SL-1200 fraternity... :thmbsp:
 
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