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The Battle of the Titans: Nakamichi TA-4A vs Luxman R-117

Put Luxman in a system today as an preamp/power amp, after using it for a week as a power amp only with the Nak CA-7A as a pre. BTW it was a great power amp; apparently, not that bass-heavy as Nakamichi TA-4A STASIS but I didn't do direct comparison.

Everything works except the phono stage :worried: Upon selecting the PHONO as an input initially, I had a slight hum in speakers then some relay clicks inside and sound disappeared completely. Powered Luxman off and on- dead silent in phono mode while other inputs work OK.

I like the sound of Luxman but the full shootout with the Nak would require one more trip to the bench to fix the phono stage.
 
And the adventure continues - I know the feeling of "it worked before I fixed it", I've got one of those on the bunch currently :scratch2:.
 
I`d like to see a four-way shootout with these two and also the Yamaha R-9 (125wpc)and Harman Kardon HK990xvi (90wpc), both TOTL from the same era. I have those two and also a Nak TA-3A with a blown L channel. I recall in `87 I had been thinking about getting a Carver receiver when a friend who was asst mgr at the base PX offered the R-9 to me for $450 as a demo unit, which was 1/2 of the off-base $900 list. The Naks were sold at a local hi-fi shop along also with HK, and I always wondered how the big Yammy would compare to both in sound reproduction. It hasn`t let me down in 20+ yrs and the tuner has always amazed me.
 
Re;Battle of Titans

Thanks for the post. I'm sitting here listening to Diana Krall through my TA-4A running a pair of equally vintage Von Schweikert Screens and wondering if I too should have the old Nak overhauled. It still sounds amazing to my 50 year old ears. The controls don't pop or crackle and she's still pretty quiet. With a disc on pause, I can turn it all the way up and won't hear any hiss until I'm right in front of the speaker. It still kicks the crap out of my nearly new 100wpc Kavent A210 tube hybrid. It is twenty years old though. If it can still make these old monster speakers rumble the house with clean tight bass, does it need a recap? What will I gain?
Unlike you, I am not a tech. Is it going to be worth the cost to send it out and have it done or should I just continue to enjoy the music and run her to fail? Can you recommend a tech or repair shop that would be able to bring her back to spec or maybe even better and fix the weak, noisy tuner for a affordable price?
Any suggestions will be much appreciated.
 
Hey Kotofei, thanks for doing this shootout! I recently picked up an R-115, and have been completly blown away by its overall competency. I haven't found any weaknesses! Everything it does, it seems to do right. It does have quite a bit less output power than the 117, but I have fairly sensitive speakers, so that's no problem at all for me.

What I'm wondering is this: what are you doing specifically for op-amp upgrades? I know these units used several SIP-8 chips; are you using a SIP to DIP adapter, or something else? Which op-amps are you putting in? Are you doing any other mods to it, besides recapping?

I did a tuner shootout between the R-115's tuner and a modified DBX TX-3 (sound quality only), and was surprised at the result. The Luxman tuner didn't sound as good, but the difference was not great. The DBX had more fullness through the midrange, but that was about it. I suspect rolling op-amps and coupling caps in the Luxman would bring it up to the same level, or maybe put it over the top. And that is no small feat for any tuner.
 
The re-cap might improve the soundstage in such a way that you can pinpoint on instrument to a "spot" at the soundstage rather than to some small area. Than't what I experienced after re-capping phono stage in my TA-4A with high-grade audio caps including a pair of Black gates.

If you don't listen to vinyl re-capping might not improve the sound in a big way since the preamp and power amp sections don't have line-in electrolytic caps, just a pair or two of coupling ones that are not that critical. You might get a better sound after re-cap of a power supply; however, AFAIK that impoves bass response first (here I might be wrong). You said you have a clean tight bass so you might not need more. You could do a more extensive restoration such as changing other non-electrolytic caps. The ony thing I could recommend here is replacing steel amp-preamp jumpers with silver ones. They are just at the back of the unit and it takes a couple of seconds to exchange them. In my case, in widens the soundstage and improved high frequency response. I got them for $40 from an AKer who makes them.

BTW I am not a tech too; however, in order to do a re-cap IMHO one shouldn't be a tech. The tuner is another problem. Here re-cap might help but in order to align the tuner one should have special equipment and experience. A tech can also adjust idling current. You could do it on your own but the adjustment pots and measuring points are not easy to access.

In order to recommend the tech, we need to know where you are located.


Painterdude said:
Thanks for the post. I'm sitting here listening to Diana Krall through my TA-4A running a pair of equally vintage Von Schweikert Screens and wondering if I too should have the old Nak overhauled. It still sounds amazing to my 50 year old ears. The controls don't pop or crackle and she's still pretty quiet. With a disc on pause, I can turn it all the way up and won't hear any hiss until I'm right in front of the speaker. It still kicks the crap out of my nearly new 100wpc Kavent A210 tube hybrid. It is twenty years old though. If it can still make these old monster speakers rumble the house with clean tight bass, does it need a recap? What will I gain?
Unlike you, I am not a tech. Is it going to be worth the cost to send it out and have it done or should I just continue to enjoy the music and run her to fail? Can you recommend a tech or repair shop that would be able to bring her back to spec or maybe even better and fix the weak, noisy tuner for a affordable price?
Any suggestions will be much appreciated.
Click to expand...
 
I upgraded a single µPC4570HA-1 9-pin opamp in the phono stage to LM4562. The thread is here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=350105

Replacement required a Browndog SIL to DIP adapter; I also soldered in a DIP socket into it in order to facilitate opamp rolling in the future.

Another µPC4570HA-1 opamp sits in the tuner circuit, probably at the final amplification stage. I didn't change it but you might be interested.

The adapter must be soldered in the right way, see the last post in the µPC4570 replacement thread.

Besides changing of the 'lytics, I replaced a couple of ceramic caps to polypropylene in the phono stage and in the preamp input stages. That might improve sound too.

jhoyt said:
Hey Kotofei, thanks for doing this shootout! I recently picked up an R-115, and have been completly blown away by its overall competency. I haven't found any weaknesses! Everything it does, it seems to do right. It does have quite a bit less output power than the 117, but I have fairly sensitive speakers, so that's no problem at all for me.

What I'm wondering is this: what are you doing specifically for op-amp upgrades? I know these units used several SIP-8 chips; are you using a SIP to DIP adapter, or something else? Which op-amps are you putting in? Are you doing any other mods to it, besides recapping?

I did a tuner shootout between the R-115's tuner and a modified DBX TX-3 (sound quality only), and was surprised at the result. The Luxman tuner didn't sound as good, but the difference was not great. The DBX had more fullness through the midrange, but that was about it. I suspect rolling op-amps and coupling caps in the Luxman would bring it up to the same level, or maybe put it over the top. And that is no small feat for any tuner.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks, I didn't know if there were any high-quality SIP-9 (or 8) op amps out there. That sounds just like what I imagined would be done.
 
Hello

I'm still waiting for the continuation of this Battle with the Luxman in upgraded form.

I take it that the Sansui 9090 DB is not up to being considered for the title of The Receiver??
 
Yeah what's going on here?Great review but let's have the final round.And maybe some pics of the two side by side dukin it out.
 
I searched this thread for pics but there are none, in fact it makes perfect sense without pics, but still..
I feel like a small child looking only at the photos in the magazine..

I wish posting pics in AudioKarma could be obligatory for the OP.:yes:
 
kotofei said:
...My current setup has a Nakamichi TA-4A receiver as its centerpiece. It was made in late 1980s and uses STASIS amp design licensed by Nelson Pass. TA-4A was Nakamichi flagship receiver back then and retailed for around $1300. It is remote controlled and has several upscale features such as phono stage with moving coil capabilities, variable loudness and ability to control other system components such as CD Player and tape deck....
Click to expand...

I recently bought a Nakamichi SR-4A and used it as a stereo only system running a pair of Magnepan SMGc speakers (4ohm). It sounded great but I read many posts about how the Maggies like a lot of power. So I just bought a B&K ST1400II and connected it to the pre-outs ("external processor") of the SR-4A thinking I could just use the Nak as a pre-amp. Much to my surprise, though, the sound came out at whatever level is native to the B&K with no volume function from the receiver. I have looked everywhere and can't find a owners manual for the SR-4A or even a TA. Do you or anyone else know what I am missing as far as using the SR-4A as a pre-amp?
 
Gary D Olson said:
:tears:
Click to expand...

Yeah... We are not getting any younger. On the other hand, we get more experience.

So what was the result of the test after Luxman was modded? The modifications gave R-117 an edge with digital source (CD) since the bass became more focused and overall power output increased to >200 WPC, easily surpassing the Nakamichi power output. OTOH the power was not an issue in the beginning, both TA-4A and R-117 stock had enough.

Playing CD especially in "direct" mode, Luxman has slightly better instrument tonality and both pieces had same 2D soundstage. None excelled in 3D soundstage though; the Pioneer SA-9800 which I modded a year after Luxman was a clear winner here.

With other inputs, Luxman sound was in my opinion closer to the original than the Nak. However, I liked the phono stage in TA-4A specifically for its lack of accuracy i.e. emphasis on vocal midrange that was seducingly sweet. I've never heard such a sweet phono stage on any other gear; I know it colors sound but I like it! Luxman's phono stage was...well, just a phono stage. Nothing special.

So at the end I would say between two modded amps the R-117 is "the winner of accurate sound reproduction" and the TA-4A is "the winner of the listener sympathy". In the stock form, however, one should be better with Luxman.

However, for the same money now one could get a working Pioneer SA-9800. I've never heard a stock one, but the recapped and restored SA-9800 in my hands sounded better than any other gear. Why I let her go: lack of remote control. Yeah, we're getting older.
 
And... Closure

kotofei said:
Yeah... We are not getting any younger. On the other hand, we get more experience.

So what was the result of the test after Luxman was modded? The modifications gave R-117 an edge with digital source (CD) since the bass became more focused and overall power output increased to >200 WPC, easily surpassing the Nakamichi power output. OTOH the power was not an issue in the beginning, both TA-4A and R-117 stock had enough.

Playing CD especially in "direct" mode, Luxman has slightly better instrument tonality and both pieces had same 2D soundstage. None excelled in 3D soundstage though; the Pioneer SA-9800 which I modded a year after Luxman was a clear winner here.

With other inputs, Luxman sound was in my opinion closer to the original than the Nak. However, I liked the phono stage in TA-4A specifically for its lack of accuracy i.e. emphasis on vocal midrange that was seducingly sweet. I've never heard such a sweet phono stage on any other gear; I know it colors sound but I like it! Luxman's phono stage was...well, just a phono stage. Nothing special.

So at the end I would say between two modded amps the R-117 is "the winner of accurate sound reproduction" and the TA-4A is "the winner of the listener sympathy". In the stock form, however, one should be better with Luxman.

However, for the same money now one could get a working Pioneer SA-9800. I've never heard a stock one, but the recapped and restored SA-9800 in my hands sounded better than any other gear. Why I let her go: lack of remote control. Yeah, we're getting older.
Click to expand...


Nice finish; I appreciate the time.
 
Remotes are getting to be a lot more important with me also but I don't think I could have given that Pioneer up for that reason.
 
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