the erosion continues-now Harley Davidson shows telltale signs
- Thread starter kneeOhFight
- Start date
twitch54
Super Member
Utter BS....... and yes I'm as old as you been riding since '67 and unless you live under a rock look at what one can purchase an '883' for vs. an equivilent 900cc metric. yes you will pay more for a HD, but don't for one minute compare the crap paint job and lousy chrome of a Metric to a HD ! As far as the big iron...have you looked at the price of a Gold Wing lately ?? granted it is probably best in class !
Remember this the metrics set out to dupicate the HD image...not the other way around !
Now with all that I've said I love Metrics, espescially the 'Nakeds',
Only a fool would wish doom and gloom on any of the bike Mfgs, being a snowmobiler I remember back in the day when they were dropping like flies, thank God we have four left, competition IS a prerequisite !
kneeOhFight
Addicted Member
:headscrat
whoaru99
Epic Member
Got your Suzuki B-King?
Snowmobiles, eh? Wish I'd not sold my '78 Rupp Nitro liquid cooled sled. That was a pretty bad machine in its day. Might even whoop on some of today's 440 sleds.
Alas, I'm resigned to an "ancient" '02 Polaris 700 XC Edge.
Cogito
Well-Known Member
It would seem that virtually all the "big" manufacturers are hurting. I read somewhere that motorcycle sales were down over 70% for the year. However, if you have the cash, there are some tremendous deals out there right now. Hell, there STILL a bunch of '08 leftovers out there that dealers are scrambling to get rid of. It's a buyers market!
What kills me is that Buell was actually turning over a profit when H-D decided to shut 'em down to concentrate on their core business (H-D) that's bleeding money.
Cogito
Well-Known Member
Harley has many models under $10,000. Hell, the 883 Sportster sells for just under $7k. However, with bikes like the bulletproof Kawasaki Vulcan 900 and Star's stunning V-Star 950 with it's class leading fit n finish, the 883 is a hard sell with it's spartan features and it's lackluster perfomance.
twitch54
Super Member
I prefer the look of the Triumph
Good sled, I owned Polaris for many a year, but after buying an '05 Fusion which turned out to be a totall POS I returned to 'Doo.......'09 Renegade 800r
70salesguy
Only 99 easy payments!
Current market conditions
Locally here where I live, the metric bike dealers are hurting big time!
About 6 months ago, the local Honda Dealership was sold to the same person who owns the Chevrolet Dealership from which I have purchased all my Tahoes. It was a good matchup, since the guy has a solid record of managing his dealerships well.
Then, just a month or so ago, the Yamaha/Suzuki dealership was sold to him as well. It was stated in the newspaper that they were experiencing "cashflow issues". That's BS for low sales.
It would seem that both HD and the metric bikes are both suffering from the effects of the current economy and the resultant low sales. The metric manufacturers may be able to "ride this out" as a result of their other business operations (especially Honda). It seems that the HD Dealers are being helped by the fact that they do a lot of sales of HD branded items such as T-shirts and the like.
No one benefits as the result of the demise of any brand at this point. Competition has made all brands better and kept prices competitive as well!
The current conditions that make the "leisure dollar" more scarce has created a market that has made for some excellent buys on luxury items. I was able to take advantage of this myself when I made my recent purchase of my XLR.
Locally here where I live, the metric bike dealers are hurting big time!
About 6 months ago, the local Honda Dealership was sold to the same person who owns the Chevrolet Dealership from which I have purchased all my Tahoes. It was a good matchup, since the guy has a solid record of managing his dealerships well.
Then, just a month or so ago, the Yamaha/Suzuki dealership was sold to him as well. It was stated in the newspaper that they were experiencing "cashflow issues". That's BS for low sales.
It would seem that both HD and the metric bikes are both suffering from the effects of the current economy and the resultant low sales. The metric manufacturers may be able to "ride this out" as a result of their other business operations (especially Honda). It seems that the HD Dealers are being helped by the fact that they do a lot of sales of HD branded items such as T-shirts and the like.
No one benefits as the result of the demise of any brand at this point. Competition has made all brands better and kept prices competitive as well!
The current conditions that make the "leisure dollar" more scarce has created a market that has made for some excellent buys on luxury items. I was able to take advantage of this myself when I made my recent purchase of my XLR.
grillebilly
Empty Head
I read somewhere Harley sold more bikes from 1999 to 2004 than it did from 1903-1998. And they sold lots of bikes in the early 90's. That is when everyone was HD crazy and were buying them for garage furniture. Harley shops became emporiums. I would guess anyone would realize that it can't go on forever. But Harley kept getting bigger and bigger and it seemed they got too big.
I don't know much about business but Harleys became a fad to people who never should of gotten a motorcycle. That is why there are so many used on CL with no miles on them. But it is not me who decides what they should spend their money on. I am glad they did, a used HD with 500 miles can be bought for half what it cost out the door.
I guess what I am getting at is HD was doing fine, kicking jap ass for decades, (century?) and after selling a billion bikes they fall on hard times. I don't get it.
I don't know much about business but Harleys became a fad to people who never should of gotten a motorcycle. That is why there are so many used on CL with no miles on them. But it is not me who decides what they should spend their money on. I am glad they did, a used HD with 500 miles can be bought for half what it cost out the door.
I guess what I am getting at is HD was doing fine, kicking jap ass for decades, (century?) and after selling a billion bikes they fall on hard times. I don't get it.
Maybe ...
Sorry, but the Stang is not riding. I have plenty of cars if I want to drive. The Road King with trailer is riding and when you get camp set up, you leave the trailer and ride the area roads until it's time to head home. No need for the trailer if going less than 3~4 days. But when doing a lengthy adventure, it's nice to have a decent tent and bedding, extra cloths and all. The cool thing, is it has enough torque to pull it without hardly any notice.
If you have not ridden a Road King, well you just don't know what the ride is like. Once you have clocked 11 hours in the saddle on one and feel like you could do another 10 for the hell of it, you know why the folks who own one, do
Right now, we've passed the low point for used Harley shopping. The cases where folks needed to sell the toys to save the house are pretty much over. There was a time last fall when you could buy a nicely equipped H-D for less than $10K, sometimes less than $5K if they were in a real panic. Don't think we'll see those prices again.
Re: Buell and MV Augusta - I don't think they were a good fit for H-D, any better than Aeromachi in the 1970's. That was a business plan for another time. Eric Buell is/was a superb bike engineer. He needs to be out from under the marketing company that is H-D today. Same with MV.
You think brand loyalty, or whatever you call the H-D brand thing is, is over the top - try Ducati? Or air cooled BMW. Brands have followings. We certainly see that here among audio gear. No different with bikes :scratch2:
Problem is that gas is not high enough priced. Once gas goes to $5/gal or above, all the bike companies will be doing better. The culture of cars as run around vehicles is not great. California alone consumes more gasoline motor fuel than China and India combined. That needs to change and fuel pricing is the fastest way to get that done. With incentive based fuel pricing (including taxes), motorcycles will be much more viable. Big old 700 lb H-D Road Kings get better than 50 mpg at cruising speed on the freeway. We just need less cars and more space on that same freeway to enjoy that bike
Sorry, but the Stang is not riding. I have plenty of cars if I want to drive. The Road King with trailer is riding and when you get camp set up, you leave the trailer and ride the area roads until it's time to head home. No need for the trailer if going less than 3~4 days. But when doing a lengthy adventure, it's nice to have a decent tent and bedding, extra cloths and all. The cool thing, is it has enough torque to pull it without hardly any notice.
If you have not ridden a Road King, well you just don't know what the ride is like. Once you have clocked 11 hours in the saddle on one and feel like you could do another 10 for the hell of it, you know why the folks who own one, do
Right now, we've passed the low point for used Harley shopping. The cases where folks needed to sell the toys to save the house are pretty much over. There was a time last fall when you could buy a nicely equipped H-D for less than $10K, sometimes less than $5K if they were in a real panic. Don't think we'll see those prices again.
Re: Buell and MV Augusta - I don't think they were a good fit for H-D, any better than Aeromachi in the 1970's. That was a business plan for another time. Eric Buell is/was a superb bike engineer. He needs to be out from under the marketing company that is H-D today. Same with MV.
You think brand loyalty, or whatever you call the H-D brand thing is, is over the top - try Ducati? Or air cooled BMW. Brands have followings. We certainly see that here among audio gear. No different with bikes :scratch2:
Problem is that gas is not high enough priced. Once gas goes to $5/gal or above, all the bike companies will be doing better. The culture of cars as run around vehicles is not great. California alone consumes more gasoline motor fuel than China and India combined. That needs to change and fuel pricing is the fastest way to get that done. With incentive based fuel pricing (including taxes), motorcycles will be much more viable. Big old 700 lb H-D Road Kings get better than 50 mpg at cruising speed on the freeway. We just need less cars and more space on that same freeway to enjoy that bike
qboneus
Senior Member
there are lots of folks here that collect vintage gear, mainly because it was built to last.
I come from that era. Same could be said for HD, they all get recycled, hence their resale has stayed high for many years (until lately, maybe)
For many years the best touring bike was an FLH. The fastest bike mass produced was a Sportster.
Nowadays kids wanting a hot rod buy jap bikes. As well they should. Harley at one time had an advertisement with a Bic lighter and a Zippo. Yeah, the Zippo needed maintenance, stunk, and was finicky....but the Bic goes in the trash when it runs out of fuel.
As far as the Harley idolatry goes...yeah, it sickens me too...worse than Porsche owners. But the bikes have their merits, and if some folks want to wrap their lips around a straight pipe to pay homage, let 'em...don't hurt anyone.
I forgot the most important thing of all....if I wasn't a 20 year old hell-raiser on a hopped-up Sporty I would of never met my wife...she doesn't like rice bikes.
IN defense of those 'jap' bikes, I can't count how many Self righteous-don't know-how-to ride corporate, chrome and paint laden HD wannabe's I've smoked up here in Montana with my OLD, HEAVY, needs some more work 30 year old jap Honda cb-750F supersport, including HD sportsters, so I'm not sure what the bic analogy is aimed at since honda bikes have ALWAYS been more reliable than HD's (i know it's not your analogy)
BTW my old honda drools a whole lot less oil, will actually IDLE at a stop light without user manipulation AND the engine is actually balanced!!
(my friend says HD finally fixed the oil drool issue i GUESS?)
And yes I know there are DOZENS of past and modern bikes that will smoke the old F all day long!
That a HD of that same era carries such a significant valuation increase compared to Honda, et al is TOTALLY unwarranted IMO and i just look at this as a favorable "MARKET CORRECTION" to adjust HD's values to that of comparable, or superior product regardless of its COA.
HD does not make such a great product that It can single handedly buck the current economy, and barring a 'bike bailout' I can see reality finally knocking on harley davidsons door!! JMO, of course!!
IF i was buying a new, large bike i can say it would be a goldwing without any hesitation irregardless of how low HD prices spiral.
tal
kneeOhFight
Addicted Member
qboneous, I so remember when those hit the market..in the course of a week, I got to ride a Norton Commando and a Honda 750 SS, and my thinking was galvanized on motorcycles. That Honda provided my biggest adrenaline dump ever, at the time. In all fairness to Harleys of that era, I think that was the AMF "bowling pin monkey" days for them, truly dark days...oily ones too :yes:
IN defense of those 'jap' bikes, I can't count how many Self righteous-don't know-how-to ride corporate, chrome and paint laden HD wannabe's I've smoked up here in Montana with my OLD, HEAVY, needs some more work 30 year old jap Honda cb-750F supersport, including HD sportsters, so I'm not sure what the bic analogy is aimed at since honda bikes have ALWAYS been more reliable than HD's (i know it's not your analogy)
BTW my old honda drools a whole lot less oil, will actually IDLE at a stop light without user manipulation AND the engine is actually balanced!!
And yes I know there are DOZENS of past and modern bikes that will smoke the old F all day long!
That a HD of that same era carries such a significant valuation increase compared to Honda, et al is TOTALLY unwarranted IMO and i just look at this as a favorable "MARKET CORRECTION" to adjust HD's values to that of comparable, or superior product regardless of its COA.
HD does not make such a great product that It can single handedly buck the current economy, and barring a 'bike bailout' I can see reality finally knocking on harley davidsons door!! JMO, of course!!
IF i was buying a new, large bike i can say it would be a goldwing without any hesitation irregardless of how low HD prices spiral.
tal
That's a good looking bike. I have a friend that had one and I loved to ride it. I've also owned 6 Hondas myself going all the way back to 1967.....BUT!!!
I own a 2007 1200 Sportster 1200 Custom now and it suits me just fine. It may not be the fastest thing on the road, but it is fast enough for my wife and me. It may not handle like some of the "Rice Rockets" on what they call "The Snake" (U.S. 421 Shady Valley, Tn.) but we really enjoy riding it and that is what it is really all about. Kind of like audio equipment.... if I like it... it is good. You don't have to like what I like, I do. I've been in both worlds and right now this is the one I want to be in. I have also raced cross-country and road raced in WERRA. There are many differant flavors of ice cream and I like some of them and some not so much. That doesn't mean that the ones I don't like are no good.
Different strokes for different folks....live and let live....blah, blah, blah.
Ride what you like and enjoy it. :thmbsp:
Problem is that gas is not high enough priced. Once gas goes to $5/gal or above, all the bike companies will be doing better. The culture of cars as run around vehicles is not great. California alone consumes more gasoline motor fuel than China and India combined. That needs to change and fuel pricing is the fastest way to get that done. With incentive based fuel pricing (including taxes), motorcycles will be much more viable. Big old 700 lb H-D Road Kings get better than 50 mpg at cruising speed on the freeway. We just need less cars and more space on that same freeway to enjoy that bike
The problem with that analogy is that not everyone lives where weather is as temperate as where you live....there are weeks of over 100 degree weather here in South Texas and believe me, I've been riding motorcycles for 45 years, there's nothing worse than being stuck in traffic on a 100+ day, with the asphalt and engine heat adding to your overall heat load along with the bright sun...nope, summer is quite often not a good time to be out on a scooter...we are not allowed to lane split (and what rational mind would really want to?) in an attempt to keep environmental exposure times down...I'd almost rather be riding in the snow than the heat...I've done both. Personal record is 9 degrees F...that was COLD!
It's actually better to ride in the not-summer part of the year here than in the summer...at least then you can wear leathers without feeling, or smelling, like you are in a sauna suit...:yuck:
Besides, gas, and Diesel, needs to be cheaper....not more expensive...higher priced gas not only makes it more expensive to travel anywhere, but it also makes EVERY SINGLE COMMODITY, every bit of food you eat, every record or CD you buy, yes, every single thing we buy more expensive than it has to be just because of the added costs in the manufacturing and transportation of everything from the raw materials to the finished product.:sigh:
Screw the high gas prices. Premium gas shouldn't even be at $2.00 a gallon...:nono:
Same thing with the bicycle Nazis....get your f-ing bicycle off the f-ing road, or license those bastards and tax them per mile, just like those of us who have to drive for a living do with our gas taxes...after all, the highway gasoline taxes are pretty much a user fee, just because your mode of transportation doesn't use gasoline mean that you should get a free pass on the roads....and, bike lanes? Who the f- pays for that? Certainly not the bicycling commuters...sure, you hear them say "well, I have a car, too..." but by not using it to commute with, by not buying fuel, you are not paying for the maintenance or construction of roads, or lanes, that you are using, and quite often demanding...:thumbsdn:
And yes, I do ride a bicycle, purely for health reasons around the neighborhood, just for exercise...but if there is anything I have to do, anywhere I have to go, I'll use a motorcycle or one of my trucks....I pay the gas prices, and with my low fuel mileage, I pay my fair share...you couldn't pay me to ride a bicycle out in traffic, that's just pure insanity and you might just get what you deserve....:twak:
Besides, read what I said about the high temperatures that we have here, along with an unhealthy amount of humidity, and the LAST thing in the world I would want to do is commute on a bicycle...again, please reference sauna suit, sweat, and stench....:yuck:
uke:Of course, you have to realize that these are just the ruminations of a crotchety old fart that's been a gear head since almost infancy...we would go watch stock car racing at a local track when I was a babe in arms back in the early 1950's...so, growing up with that as the premier family observation type of sport, is it any wonder why I can't stand any of the ball game type things? Maybe if football players exploded into flames when they tackled each other or body parts flew all over the place then there might be some excitement....as it is, not for me....I haven't voluntarily watched any football games in at least 30 years, and basketball even longer, and just do not see the point of it all....
Kind of like Indy racing has seemed to become...all the same chassis, all the same engines....it used to be a race between a lot of different car makers, engine makers (well, OK there was the Offenhauser days), and styles versus the overall Pablum that's served now...besides, it was a LOT more dangerous to drive during the Offy's heyday, and thrills were quite dramatic then, the speeds might not have been as high, but their crashes were quite often very deadly....scary sh*t....
qboneous, two of my best friends had that series of 750F's and the 900F's, too, while I hung on to my trusty KZ-900...one of them wrecked his really highly modded F doing a "stoppie" and hitting a patch of schmutz in the road, the other 900F went down at Texas World Speedway in a race, but was fine, yet soon replaced with a GSXR750...great bikes...
I think the reason for the feeling that Japanese bikes were more fragile than the really more agrarian HD's was because it took a bit more skill and finesse to be a mechanic on one of them, versus any nearby tractor mechanic could wrench on a Harley...precision machining, parts that were more "exotic", overhead cams and shims, carburetor sticks with four mercury columns to balance the intake, wet clutches, unit construction, wet sumps, more cylinders, more electronics, a more highly tuned and efficient engine...all these things take a mechanical aptitude and more experience in advanced motorcycle technologies to work on them and the specialized tools to match...there was just so many more parts in the Japanese sport bikes....been there, done that....
Harleys, at least the ones I worked on years ago, were much simpler, much easier to work on, just a bit more "coarse" than the Japanese, Italian, or even British motorcycles...they were more akin to the British sports cars I used to have and love...while they did require you to work on them from time to time, it was always a pleasure, and amazingly cost effective when you knew what you were doing...I mean, I could take out the starter on my TR-4, strip it down, clean and paint the body of it with Krylon Semi-Flat Black, if it needed it, clean out the bearings, polish the shafts, lube it, replace the brushes (which cost like four bucks max), clean the commutator, reinstall it in the car, all in about an hour...geeze, I miss cars as simple as that to work on....
The V-Rod, though, has changed all that simplicity for HD, I'm sure...
But, I bet they don't have an iPhone app like the one one of my best friends has for his three Ducatis that allows him to pluck the OHC drive belt and measure it's frequency and tell if it's properly tensioned or not...
Of course, I would still love to have a well sorted and tuned XLCR.....
I also hope that I used enough of the emoticons to let everyone know that while I am serious about what I have said here, I don't take it too seriously, so please, don't take offense, I'm just an obnoxious old bas*ard having fun!
.
Noted And, yeah for a run around bike that XLCR would be perfect.
OBTW - we have a 1/3 summer at or above 100* here. It makes the grapes ripen and everybody else. Hot is hot and if you can't keep moving, it's miserable on a bike. But imagine what fun it might be with a third less cars on the road? And yes, we can split lanes, but it's a bigger gamble than the NYSE
And, yeah for a run around bike that XLCR would be perfect. OBTW - we have a 1/3 summer at or above 100* here. It makes the grapes ripen and everybody else. Hot is hot and if you can't keep moving, it's miserable on a bike. But imagine what fun it might be with a third less cars on the road? And yes, we can split lanes, but it's a bigger gamble than the NYSE
grillebilly
Empty Head
That's what is all about.
I was by no means slandering jap bikes....I think a 160 Honda is still cool. I was just pointing out you don't find boneyards full of HD's.
The 750 Honda is a beauty, and it shows you take pride in it. And I don't doubt it is plenty fast and you can dust the dentist on his geezer glide. I would guess the doctor could care less if you were on a Hyabusa or a Rupp mini bike because he is on what he wants.
rickr15
Super Member
Part of Harleys sales have been sapped by their imitators/Improvers as well. You have hundreds of manufacturers (OCC, Bourget , Big Dog, Saxon, Black Magic, West coast Choppers etc). all selling to Harleys customers without Harley seeing a dime. The Engines are built By S&S or one of the other aftermarket "Harley" engine builders.
If Harley folded tomorrow you would still see new "Harleys" for many years to come.
As for Buell I believe he retained some kind of control over the name and may be back. Would be nice to see.
If Harley folded tomorrow you would still see new "Harleys" for many years to come.
As for Buell I believe he retained some kind of control over the name and may be back. Would be nice to see.
y2keglide
Super Member
Meh......what's next? maybe a nice oil or tire thread,or perhaps the ever popular the V-rod has a Porsche engine...no it isn't it's a Harley....yeah but it's Porsche designed......no it's not it's H-D race designed but refined for the street by......................................
Or maybe a good poser thread,those are always good,or maybe some more geezer comments.
This thread is so full of BS it's a real classic lol,very entertaining.
The H-D sales slump is a reflection of the economy pure and simple just like many other businesses.
I've heard the old aging buyer argument going on and how they need to sell to a younger market or perish for decades now.
I meet younger riders on Harleys all the time,Sportys sell to young riders and also women quite well and middle age guys like the H-D cruisers Softails and Dynaglides.
One thing about younger riders is eventually they get old and want a more comfortable cruiser or long haul bike for two up riding.
Listening to some of the BS in this thread you'd think all Harleys are the same.
I've owned quite a few that were very different from one another,been love'n the big touring bikes since I was 40.
At 53 I'm wanting another new one but the economy cost me my job of 24 years so it's on hold for now but rest assured there is a 3rd Electra in my future.
I'll get by for a while longer with my ten year old bike,after all it's only got 160,000 miles on it so there's lots of life left in the old girl.
Or maybe a good poser thread,those are always good,or maybe some more geezer comments.
This thread is so full of BS it's a real classic lol,very entertaining.
The H-D sales slump is a reflection of the economy pure and simple just like many other businesses.
I've heard the old aging buyer argument going on and how they need to sell to a younger market or perish for decades now.
I meet younger riders on Harleys all the time,Sportys sell to young riders and also women quite well and middle age guys like the H-D cruisers Softails and Dynaglides.
One thing about younger riders is eventually they get old and want a more comfortable cruiser or long haul bike for two up riding.
Listening to some of the BS in this thread you'd think all Harleys are the same.
I've owned quite a few that were very different from one another,been love'n the big touring bikes since I was 40.
At 53 I'm wanting another new one but the economy cost me my job of 24 years so it's on hold for now but rest assured there is a 3rd Electra in my future.
I'll get by for a while longer with my ten year old bike,after all it's only got 160,000 miles on it so there's lots of life left in the old girl.
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