The Fisher XP-1 Questions

[RobertKC]

I just purchased this pair of The Fisher XP-1. They are functional and all of the drivers appear to be working. I plan to do a full restoration on them; cabinets, crossover, tweeter control and driver work. Looking for advice. I think the drivers are all original but the woofer on one looks like it has had some work. Any idea why someone would have replaced the dustcap. The surrounds on the midranges look like they have had some repairs to the surrounds. What are the chances that I could source original replacement drivers? One of the tweeter controls seems to be non functional and feels gritty. Again, is this something that I will be able to replace. I would like to keep them all original. Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[tgmartin]

Those 5" cone drivers with no covers look suspiciously like AR2 Carbonneau Mid/Tweets with the warping and goop on the surrounds. Do they have fiberglass stuffing behind the cones?

 

[stickman]

Back during the days of their tube equipment Fisher was known for their high quality electronics but not for their loudspeaker systems which never really developed a collector following as their sound quality just didn't make them particularly desirable. The modest prices vintage Fisher speakers are worth these days testifies to that. The same situation applies to vintage McIntosh speaker systems as well but they were much more expensive.

The 1960's/early 70's brands and models which collectors still seek like AR 2s and 3s, the KLH Model 6, Dynaco A-25's, and The Original Large Advent Loudspeaker earned their reputations and collectibility and still sound pleasing today.

I would not spend too much money or time trying to return these to original/stock condition as replacing the drivers with alternative superior units would likely provide much better sound quality. That's just my two cents worth....

 

[loudnoises]

There are a few variations of the xp-1, one has the mid and tweeter offset. Another has them even like yours. I've seen both style woofers, they may both have been used at different times. Ive even seen one with what looked like a paper towel tube port (NOT recommended). My guess is that somebody replaced one with a different generation. The small dust cap was probably the og version, if I was guessing.

Fisher speakers were never bad, but by modern standards they aren't regarded as very good. There's little market beyond a scarce few nostalgia buyers. Rolled off highs, but good bass and midrange usually. Really very easy to listen to, never fatiguing. But not really a money winner.

The caps could very well need replacement. But if the drivers all work i would just enjoy them as is. Pull the woofers and check codes maybe, but you may find that "correct" is a bit of a moving target with this era. Many changes along the way.

 

[Sammcamos]

To me the tweeters do look like the original AR-2 tweeter. Those were actually pretty good tweeters, having heard a few. I think part of the reason they went with the "supertweeter" in the 2a was to reduce the directionality of the paper tweeters.

I think the reason that Fisher didn't gain a very good reputation for speakers is kind of two-fold. First, their early speaker offerings were surprisingly innovative in driver design, but this led to many of their drivers being nonfuntional due to aging components very quickly. Secondly, Fisher's quality fell off way before AR, KLH, JBL and other more collectable brands, so many people remember them as being a budget brand before the others became budget brands.

Personally, I find the found my XP-10s (with replaced tweeters) to have a very live, but somewhat unfocused sound. Compared to AR-2a's and AR-2ax speakers, I think the Fishers were less accurate, but much more memorable sounding (Actually my Hartley Holtons sound similar to the Fisher XP-10, but with the benefit of "holographic" imaging). Also, the strongest part of any of the classic era Fisher speakers are the woofers.

 

[RobertKC]

Back during the days of their tube equipment Fisher was known for their high quality electronics but not for their loudspeaker systems which never really developed a collector following as their sound quality just didn't make them particularly desirable. The modest prices vintage Fisher speakers are worth these days testifies to that. The same situation applies to vintage McIntosh speaker systems as well but they were much more expensive.

The 1960's/early 70's brands and models which collectors still seek like AR 2s and 3s, the KLH Model 6, Dynaco A-25's, and The Original Large Advent Loudspeaker earned their reputations and collectibility and still sound pleasing today.

I would not spend too much money or time trying to return these to original/stock condition as replacing the drivers with alternative superior units would likely provide much better sound quality. That's just my two cents worth....

Thanks for your input stickman. I felt the same way at first but as I started doing a little digging I feel like the story may be a bit deeper and I owe it to myself to go the restoration path as opposed to a resto-mod. These speakers were designed by Bill Hecht who became a force in speaker innovation. In partnership with Avery Fisher in the late 50's they built the very speakers I just purchased. Mine appear to be a very early releases of the fist child of the Hecht/Fisher marriage. Fisher himself was not one to be satisfied with mediocre results as is seen in the early Fisher electronics. Fisher sold out in around 1969 so after that all bets are off but the early stuff were built to very high standards. I can not say for sure how these will sound because in their current condition they do not represent well, but I do want to find out for myself! I am older and I like old things and I like a good project so what the hell! Plus they look like no speaker I have ever seen. Not sure if that plastic panel is a plus/minus/or neither but paired with the "TheFisher" badge. I know I will be happy to have them around me.

Here is a tiny bit of the info that I found that is pushing me in the accurate restoration direction:

"In 1959, audio pioneer Avery Fisher commissioned Bill Hecht’s company, United Speaker Systems, to build the very first Fisher loudspeakers. This partnership produced the iconic XP-1 bookshelf speaker, which helped launch Fisher Radio into a major home audio brand and fueled Hecht's rise in the speaker manufacturing industry. [1, 2, 3]

The Partnership and Innovation

• 
  
• • The Commission: Avery Fisher hired United Speaker Systems (USS) in 1959 after noticing strong reviews for Hecht's hand-built garage creations. [1, 2]
  • The XP-1 Speaker: The collaboration yielded the legendary Fisher XP-1, establishing Fisher in the loudspeaker market. [1]"

 

[Sammcamos]

Thanks for your input stickman. I felt the same way at first but as I started doing a little digging I feel like the story may be a bit deeper and I owe it to myself to go the restoration path as opposed to a resto-mod. These speakers were designed by Bill Hecht who became a force in speaker innovation. In partnership with Avery Fisher in the late 50's they built the very speakers I just purchased. Mine appear to be a very early releases of the fist child of the Hecht/Fisher marriage. Fisher himself was not one to be satisfied with mediocre results as is seen in the early Fisher electronics. Fisher sold out in around 1969 so after that all bets are off but the early stuff were built to very high standards. I can not say for sure how these will sound because in their current condition they do not represent well, but I do want to find out for myself! I am older and I like old things and I like a good project so what the hell! Plus they look like no speaker I have ever seen. Not sure if that plastic panel is a plus/minus/or neither but paired with the "TheFisher" badge. I know I will be happy to have them around me.

Here is a tiny bit of the info that I found that is pushing me in the accurate restoration direction:

"In 1959, audio pioneer Avery Fisher commissioned Bill Hecht’s company, United Speaker Systems, to build the very first Fisher loudspeakers. This partnership produced the iconic XP-1 bookshelf speaker, which helped launch Fisher Radio into a major home audio brand and fueled Hecht's rise in the speaker manufacturing industry. [1, 2, 3]

The Partnership and Innovation

• 
  
• • The Commission: Avery Fisher hired United Speaker Systems (USS) in 1959 after noticing strong reviews for Hecht's hand-built garage creations. [1, 2]
  • The XP-1 Speaker: The collaboration yielded the legendary Fisher XP-1, establishing Fisher in the loudspeaker market. [1]"

This doesn't really apply to your speaker, because he was referring to his early dome tweeters, but Bill Hecht himself stated that pretty much any modern dome tweeter was better (longer lasting) than what he had originally invented. He recommended upgrading his original tweeters with more modern replacements. All of that being said, if you do have to make sacrifices to originality, at least you know the original designer would condone it.

 

[RobertKC]

There are a few variations of the xp-1, one has the mid and tweeter offset. Another has them even like yours. I've seen both style woofers, they may both have been used at different times. Ive even seen one with what looked like a paper towel tube port (NOT recommended). My guess is that somebody replaced one with a different generation. The small dust cap was probably the og version, if I was guessing.

Fisher speakers were never bad, but by modern standards they aren't regarded as very good. There's little market beyond a scarce few nostalgia buyers. Rolled off highs, but good bass and midrange usually. Really very easy to listen to, never fatiguing. But not really a money winner.

The caps could very well need replacement. But if the drivers all work i would just enjoy them as is. Pull the woofers and check codes maybe, but you may find that "correct" is a bit of a moving target with this era. Many changes along the way.

Hey, thanks for that input. My personal problem is that I like things to "look" nice. The sloppy tar job just puts me off. I am an audiophile, but also a woodworker, so when I am done with the cabinets, I want to have drivers and guts that look the part. I have some very nice boutique Totem speakers that have all the modern clarity, detail, and soundstage I need. I want to pair these with a late '50s tube amp for when I want to put on some old jazz vinyl from my collection and sit down for a throwback listening session!

I will pull them apart this weekend as I start the cabinet work. At a minimum, I will want to replace the drivers with very similar components from that vintage. If I can't source direct replacements, I will be looking into things like the AR-2 tweeter for similarities.

I do know that the original XP-1 literature that can be found right here on AudioKarma says they are equipped with a "12-inch Free Piston Woofer," a "5-inch midrange," and a "3-inch cone super-tweeter of unique free edge design."

Again, looking at info I can find here on AudioKarma, it looks like the crossovers were well built and one of the caps will be an oil-filled module that will likely still be in spec. I will have to look into what the tweeter control is actually doing, and then I know I will need to replace at least one of those.

I am really excited to see these beauties come back to life!

When I can get good pictures of the components I will be looking to the community for help sourcing the best options for replacements.
Thanks to everyone for the great input!

 

[RobertKC]

Those 5" cone drivers with no covers look suspiciously like AR2 Carbonneau Mid/Tweets with the warping and goop on the surrounds. Do they have fiberglass stuffing behind the cones?

Thanks! I will definitely be looking for similarities! I have not opened the cabinets yet. More info to come!

 

[Sammcamos]

The sloppy tar job just puts me off

That is the curse of early 60s speakers. Most of the companies did not fathom that people would ever take the grilles off. I'm 99% sure the speaker with the smaller dustcap is original, including tar, and the other, while also original has has some sort of work done to it.

 

[RobertKC]

That is the curse of early 60s speakers. Most of the companies did not fathom that people would ever take the grilles off. I'm 99% sure the speaker with the smaller dustcap is original, including tar, and the other, while also original has has some sort of work done to it.

Yes. I have seen lots from this era that just look like a mess. The Advents with the tape on the front of the tweeter mount holding down the leads! If I find that they are both original and working I may just have to live with the look. How about the mids and tweeters. they look like someone has added more goop on the surrounds. Do you think that is original as well? And to your earlier point, maybe I should think about upgrading the tweeters anyway. I am taking it all in...

 

[RobertKC]

There are a few variations of the xp-1, one has the mid and tweeter offset. Another has them even like yours. I've seen both style woofers, they may both have been used at different times. Ive even seen one with what looked like a paper towel tube port (NOT recommended). My guess is that somebody replaced one with a different generation. The small dust cap was probably the og version, if I was guessing.

Fisher speakers were never bad, but by modern standards they aren't regarded as very good. There's little market beyond a scarce few nostalgia buyers. Rolled off highs, but good bass and midrange usually. Really very easy to listen to, never fatiguing. But not really a money winner.

The caps could very well need replacement. But if the drivers all work i would just enjoy them as is. Pull the woofers and check codes maybe, but you may find that "correct" is a bit of a moving target with this era. Many changes along the way.

Definitely planning to make sure the caps are to spec or I will replace them. And I would like to replace that bad tweeter rheostat. What do you think about Sammcamos' comment? Maybe I would make them a bit more enjoyable if I replaced the tweeters? Also, It does seem like I could find a matched set of "original-ish" woofers if I wanted to at least get a matched set. When the cabs are nice and cherry and the new grill cloth is in place I think I might be able to get my wife to let be set them up in another room in the house. Right now she is like "how many stereos systems do we need?!" ... as many as I can get!

 

[tgmartin]

You got the right idea there ... MORE! You know, if the woofs really ARE original but the main thing bugging you is the larger dust cap you could probably get one that matches the original and redo the offender. Sounds like you're good with your hands and not above taking a little time for "fiddly" work. Original-ISH is not Original and you may have that currently. If I may be so bold, I think you ought to LISTEN to them for a while, maybe after making sure the caps are up to snuff, and evaluate their strengths and weaknesses before launching off on changing things. Sure, if a driver is blown, non-functional or obviously distorting, that would be a good (reasonable?) reason to change things especially if the failed unit is made of unobtainium. I'm really curious about the 5" mids because they are DEAD RINGERS for AR2 parts. That's what they ALL look like with the sloppy goop on the surrounds and warping, etc. The "3-inch cone super-tweeter of unique free edge design." would be nice to see too ...

 

[loudnoises]

Right there with ya. I have more than I can use, including my fishers.

You'll do no harm in upgrading the tweeters. Give em a listen before you do, and definitely replace those caps. You might like them as is.

 

[Sammcamos]

You'll do no harm in upgrading the tweeters. Give em a listen before you do, and definitely replace those caps. You might like them as is.

For sure. I wasn't particularly aiming my tweeter comment in replacing the tweeters in these; it was more so to say that with Fisher speakers I wouldn't consider it a "no-no" to improve and replace components, since that was the entire philosophy behind them. The tweeters in these don't suffer the same problems Hecht's dome tweeters do, so they definitely don't "need" to be replaced, but they probably could if you find them sub-par. I found these sorts of tweeters to be very delicate to the touch, but somewhat forgiving with the signal they receive. I also don't know if the tweeters are the driver on the left or the driver on the right... I have seen evidence of both, and no one has actually verified which is which. They claim that they are "free edge" design which would make no sense if they were the driver on the left.

In my Fisher speakers, I found the capacitors had drifted far enough out of spec to totally impact the sound, and I'm not a huge proponent of recapping speakers otherwise.

 

[loudnoises]

The red ended caps that fisher (and most others it seems) used in the era after these are all bad. Just bad. Literally seen them fall off. The drift is insane. Before this they are often still good, but drift is almost always an issue. Unless it tests very on spec, I generally will shotgun all crossovers pre 1980.

 

[RobertKC]

I finally opened up one of the XP-1 cabinets... So many questions! it looks like they literally just squared off the woofer basket with a grinder so that the driver could fit into the cabinet. Why wouldn't they just build a cabinet to the right size? Is that from the original build? The crossover has nothing to it. Seems like they may be leaning more on the rheostat to adjust the mids and highs. The cabinet is stuffed with what feels like a heavy fiberglass batting. There is a separate inclosure for the midrange but it is made our of some kine of cardboard tube that has a mirrored disk at the bottom. My first move is going to be to get the cabinets restored. Then I will jump in on the drivers and crossovers. Here are a few pictures. Any thoughts?

 

[tgmartin]

Why no close-up pic of the tweet? And was there fiberglass wedged in between the basket and cone of the 5"? If so, it's a direct rip of the AR2. Kinda looks like you mighta tore that brittle paper cone ... whoops! I've got a couple if you feel like replacing.

 

[loudnoises]

The baffle size is a complex choice, could be material efficiency, could have been a change in drivers during design.

The caps could be fine. The midrange tube is totally cool and should be sealed to isolate the mid from the woofer.

But throw away all that old fill. It's not nice stuff, do it outside right into a trash bag. Get yourself some polyfill from Walmart.

 

[RobertKC]

The baffle size is a complex choice, could be material efficiency, could have been a change in drivers during design.

The caps could be fine. The midrange tube is totally cool and should be sealed to isolate the mid from the woofer.

But throw away all that old fill. It's not nice stuff, do it outside right into a trash bag. Get yourself some polyfill from Walmart.

Thanks for the input! Couple of follow up questions. It does not seem that the midrange tube was completely sealed. Should I button it up better than I found it? Not only not completely sealed but the bottom plate was kind of thin and flexible. It also had some of that fill in the midrange cavity as well. The old fill was really dense and heavy to match that kind of consistancy I had already thought that I should maybe replace it with rock wool. It was not fluffy at all, more like wet cotton candy. I swear I could compress it with my hands and make snow balls! I am really trying to figure out what is original vs what was a past modification. It did look like all of the speaker solders were original. I am going to post a picture of the midrange as well. The paper cone on this one looks warped. I am guessing it will either need to be re-coned or replaced.