• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

The greatest tweak for a turntable........

Status
Not open for further replies.
tnsilver said:
and you know this... because?
Click to expand...
I could reply "And you know this is wrong... because?" But I'll offer a plausible "because".

Because DJs became the primary market, a very good market because they bought in pairs or quads, and maybe bought new pairs or quads after a year on the road, and wannabe DJs bought them like copycats and no other turntable would do because only a 1200 made you a real DJ, and that's how the market wanted the bearings. Better for scratching and other DJ acrobatics, and a firmer "feel" in dark clubs.

Or maybe only Wayner's bearings too tight for his liking with his music — he relaxed them a bit and thought it made a transformative change, more micro-details, bigger soundstage, "like getting a new high end cartridge" etc. I think he has a right to his opinion.

tnsilver said:
Yes very odd but doesn't rule out the possibility that every review you've ever read is wrong. In fact, I'd like to see one of those. Popular Science (Dec 1956 - Page 179) got it right. Art Dudly, for once, uses the correct terminology here. The analog department seems to get it right as well and includes imagery to explain it. It's vertical bearings for vertical motion in the vertical plain of the tonearm by anyone in the industry.
Click to expand...
Thanks for those citations. Everything you say about "right" and "wrong" may be true but both terms are used regardless. Personally I agree with you: vertical should = vertical and lateral = lateral. But both the correct and incorrect terms are in common use, and communication requires a bit of give and take. Oxford English Dictionary has given up trying to enforce "correct" English and accepted that language is "evolving", even though some new usages are appalling. I subedited books for Oxford U Press for a year and I was a stickler too because law and science books have to be precisely understood. But I've also given up the fight in less demanding formats, though I still cringe when an allegedly literate TV commentator calls a "failure" a "fail".

My favorite thing you said is "there's room enough for skepticism in a critical thinking turntable forum." I try to follow that fundamental principle you stated so clearly.
 
Last edited:
Well, It's certainly my fault for the confusion. Perhaps an education from a vocational school just can't cut the mustard, but I try to reach the common masses, much like the bell curve at the beginning of the post. If someone is confused about the terminology, pictures and further discussion can be used to clear the air on the topic. I could use a hammer, (as some do), but that seems to be counter productive.

I have several Technics tables. My other favorite is the SL1210MK5, a 2010 model. It was a return, open box product that I bought on line at a tremendous discount. When I received the unit, I discovered that the previous, short term owner had "fiddled" with the pivots. In fact the tonearm would rattle very easily, so adjustments were required. Using my ears as judge (not a torque wrench) I found a spot that seemed to be an ideal pressure. I did several mods to this table, including the install of RCA jacks to allow me to use what ever interconnects I wanted.

A few days ago, I decided to install RCA jacks to my 2007 model SL1200MK2. When I was finished, the 2 tables were basically identical, even using the same cartridge, but the sound from the 1200 seemed to lack air and some of the micro detail of the 1210. So, I decided to have a go with these pivots as well. The results were obvious.
 
The Technics 12xx have one of the industry's lowest specified bearing friction . . . less than 7 mg both vertical and lateral. My Jelco 750D have 30mg vertical/lateral specified for comparision. And I have to say that my 1210 does not lack any details, afaik or hear, neither does my Jelco.
 
bimasta said:
I could reply "And you know this is wrong... because?" But you like to argue and always be right, and I don't really care about that, so I'll offer a plausible "because".
Click to expand...
The last thing one wants to do when explicitly asked to back up their own claims is to bamboozle their way out of it with an English language evolution argument. That's BS and even you know it. No... actually, it's the second last thing. The last would be to publicly argue with someone they "personally" agree with.
WaynerN said:
I try to reach the common masses, much like the bell curve at the beginning of the post.
Click to expand...
Try to reach the common masses with this because a Guassian bell represents a normally distributed random variable so no curve when nothing is random and 100% of mfgr's adjust their bearings at the factory. It's bog plain linear aside from the few inquisitive owners that futz around with factory settings and mfgr's that blow it - but they do not even make it to the statistics (well, not to my statistics anyway, not here at least, because that would spoil the nice line and a good point and also make me use MS paint features that I do not master and do not wish to learn).

SNnNZKF.jpg
 
tnsilver said:
The last thing one wants to do when explicitly asked to back up their own claims is to bamboozle their way out of it with an English language evolution argument. That's BS and even you know it. No... actually, it's the second last thing. The last would be to publicly argue with someone they "personally" agree with.
Try to reach the common masses with this because a Guassian bell represents a normally distributed random variable so no curve when nothing is random and 100% of mfgr's adjust their bearings at the factory. It's bog plain linear aside from the few inquisitive owners that futz around with factory settings and mfgr's that blow it - but they do not even make it to the statistics (well, not to my statistics anyway, not here at least, because that would spoil the nice line and a good point and also make me use MS paint features that I do not master and do not wish to learn).
Click to expand...

No it won´t be a Gaussian curve as the force to move the arm will probably have a small variation; and it will not go under or over certain figures.
 
WaynerN said:
We all know what a bell curve is right? It can explain variables in deign, application or even life. Here is an example of one:

View attachment 1265507
This also represents the correctness of the adjustment of tonearm pivots, especially the ones the make the tonearm go up and down (AKA, the horizontal pivots). Adhering to the bell curve theory, only a small percentage of tonearm pivots are adjusted correctly.

Today, I found that out, as I fooled around with my 2007 model Technics SL1200MK2 turntable. Yes, I have turned it into a completely different table, capable of awesome stereo dynamics and soundstage, all because those nasty pivots were too tight!

You do need a couple of tools to do this with most tables, a spanner type screw driver and a smaller slot type screw driver and some "feel".

The process is simple. loosen the outer set screw collar, then (in small increments), loosen the pivot until the the tonearm seems to have some movement with in the framework of the pivots. Then turn the pivots back in (again in small increments) until the first sigh of "slop" is gone. Lock the outer collar.

The rewards will be like getting a new high end cartridge or even better, a completely new turntable.

Wayner
Click to expand...



I am not trying to be a jerk but without measurements you cannot assume that the dataset will follow a standard bell curve.

I am not saying that adjusting the bearings will not change the sound for the better, it very likely would if done properly.

Just saying that the bell curve analogy isn't valid without measured data to support it, as all datasets do not follow a bell curve.
 
I've never seen Technics bearing specs but KAB thinks they're rated at 7 milligrams of friction. To be honest, it's unclear which bearing he refers to, whether it's horizontal or vertical, but some of us are unclear about it too.
 
Last edited:
tnsilver said:
es, thank you - it's both bearings and KAB is indeed correct.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's correct at <7mg. :)

It was some Jelcos I'd been checking out at 30mg.

http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/jelco-ts-350s-tonearm
http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/jelco-tk-850s-tonearm
http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/jelco-tk-850l-tonearm


The spec is interesting as they quote 'inner wire free'. In other words, no tonearm wire. Makes me wonder if Technics <7mg is just the bearings, not the arm with wire...
 
Last edited:
First of all, the bell curve does not represent any data for arm bearings, or any other technical notions. It represents the probabilities of correctness and can be implied with anything ever manufactured. You could think of the highest peak as the desire for correct tension on the bearings, the less slope to the left as being "too lose", the slope to the right as being "too tight". Certainly there are specifications for every part in the turntable and those specifications all have tolerances that are plus and minus. The combination of plus and minus parts produces the random possibilities of assembly. Even the torque wrench has its own bell curve of repeatability and accuracy.

If my ears tell me that things are better, the music is "happier", the listening space is more energetic, the musical space better defined, does not not make the proverbial "spec sheet" merely desired goals in ideal conditions.

I have no want to return the pivot to its original position (yes I did leave bread crumbs). What will the long term consequences be for the machine? Will its improved performance take away from its life span?

And while I think (yes, we all have different opinions) that this is the greatest tweak as far as results from a tweak, it is not for everyone, or even for anybody. Its my tweak. The 1210 has been in its state for a few years now with no detectable degradation, and I suspect the 1200 will also continue to perform to my expectations.
 
Wayner wrote, "My other favorite is the SL1210MK5, a 2010 model. It was a return, open box product that I bought on line at a tremendous discount. When I received the unit, I discovered that the previous, short term owner had "fiddled" with the pivots. In fact the tonearm would rattle very easily, so adjustments were required." I lack Wayner's skill in making this kind of adjustment and wouldn't even attempt it. Hearing others talk casually about adjusting tonearm bearings is one of the reasons I tend to avoid second-hand gear.
 
I'm not sure if its skill, but it is bravery. I have bought several pieces with known problems, most recently, my Empire Grenadier 6000s (see thread). At some point, I realize that things are not going to get better, so there are basically 3 choices I can take. Leave it as it is, attempt to fix it knowing it could end up a boat anchor, attempt to fix it and know that it will improve or be fixed. Lots of times, electronics has a cold solder joint as was the case for my Sony TA-N220. After fooling around with speaker connections, ZI got intermittent sound. Removing the bottom cover exposed the speaker jack termination circuit board. A hot iron to the 8 terminals solved the problem. A $50 amp now works like new.

My Onkyo T4555 tuner (a pretty nice HD tuner) had failing RCA jacks. I went into this thing like 4 times and gave up 'cause I got scared of what I had to do. Finally, one day I said piss on it. I dismantled the tuner boards, took out the old jacks and installed new ones, put the boards back in, put the covers back on and.....problem fixed.

I discovered a lump on my throat. I knew this might be trouble. I went to my doctor and he knew what is was and said it was a 50-50 chance of being cancer. Again, there were a bunch of choices. After many procedures and a lengthy operation, and losing part of my tongue, part of my skull and bunch of junk on either side of my neck, the problem was fixed.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom