The Knife Thread.....

[MaxxVolume]

...and now, something completely different.

Went to an auction of war knives and swords. The majority of knives were WW2 and the swords from the Civil War. I got to the preview two hours early and could not get near the Civil War tables, it was 3 deep and nearly the same for the WW2 knives. It took forever but I was finally able to get up to each table and look at everything there which was a lot and there were some spectacular pieces. There were a few other tables with crossbows, martial arts weapons, and similar so I checked those out too, pretty much by myself.

On one there was a samurai sword rack with a katana & wakizashi with gloss black scabbards, red tassels, and chrome dragons. Basic tourist shop junk. However laying right behind them was a nickeled cavalry saber style scabbard and just peeking out of it the handle tang of what is clearly very old steel. I turned it over and I'd bet the color drained from my face. First 3 pics are how I saw it -

I put it down and walked away from the table, got my auction number and watched covertly until the auction started. No one went over to that table. I then waited through the 180 lots that preceded it and got nothing. One of the Civil War swords went to ~$22K, a Union artillery gladius from a unit that was wiped out. Many others were in the $3-5K and the WW2 knives proportionately high. I was shut out across the board. When they finally got the the table, there was no enthusiasm for anything there. The "samurai" set went for $60 and then this one came up. The auctioneer held it up but did not pull it from the scabbard (and I did not either, I had no idea what the blade condition was or if it was rusted out). Opening bid was $500 with no bids. Dropped to $250 with no bids. Dropped to $100 with no bids and then, dropped to $50, I put my card up expecting a fight and 10 seconds later "SOLD!". I'd already put my card down and it took the auctioneer several tries "Can I have your number?!!!" before I realized I'd won this -

What it is, is a 16th century Edo period katana. But not just any katana, it's a shobu zukuri (scalpel tip). Made only briefly and for one thing, to pierce Mongol armor! It gets better, the script is reversed and can only be read in a mirror. There were 39 sword makers qualified to build swords for the emperor and 9 that were very special. Reverse script swordmaker was one of the 9. The scabbard is from the Sino-Russian war late 1890s. The IJN/IJA did not require heirloom blades to be modified then to fit standard furniture as they did during WW2. Most that you find from WW2 have only partial signatures as the tang was shortened to fit the new type grip. This one only has one extra hole drilled and the original grip would have looked like this -

So, long story summary: I bought a rare 16th century samurai sword for $50 at auction.I believe the cheap Chinese samurai swords waved off all the serious buyers from looking at anything on those tables closely. The funniest part was when I paid for the sword and pulled the blade from the scabbard. I had an immediate high offer from one guy and incredulity from the others. I declined and there was actual anger directed at the auctioneer for not displaying the sword correctly, they should take the sword back, it wasn't fair to the consignor, etc. Heh, everyone of those chumps could have picked it up and checked it out but did not.

/yippee x infinity

Holy CRAP ! Talk about "The Deal Of The Century" !!!! Ya done good, son....

 

[Erik Tracy]

...and now, something completely different.

Went to an auction of war knives and swords. The majority of knives were WW2 and the swords from the Civil War. I got to the preview two hours early and could not get near the Civil War tables, it was 3 deep and nearly the same for the WW2 knives. It took forever but I was finally able to get up to each table and look at everything there which was a lot and there were some spectacular pieces. There were a few other tables with crossbows, martial arts weapons, and similar so I checked those out too, pretty much by myself.

On one there was a samurai sword rack with a katana & wakizashi with gloss black scabbards, red tassels, and chrome dragons. Basic tourist shop junk. However laying right behind them was a nickeled cavalry saber style scabbard and just peeking out of it the handle tang of what is clearly very old steel. I turned it over and I'd bet the color drained from my face. First 3 pics are how I saw it -

I put it down and walked away from the table, got my auction number and watched covertly until the auction started. No one went over to that table. I then waited through the 180 lots that preceded it and got nothing. One of the Civil War swords went to ~$22K, a Union artillery gladius from a unit that was wiped out. Many others were in the $3-5K and the WW2 knives proportionately high. I was shut out across the board. When they finally got the the table, there was no enthusiasm for anything there. The "samurai" set went for $60 and then this one came up. The auctioneer held it up but did not pull it from the scabbard (and I did not either, I had no idea what the blade condition was or if it was rusted out). Opening bid was $500 with no bids. Dropped to $250 with no bids. Dropped to $100 with no bids and then, dropped to $50, I put my card up expecting a fight and 10 seconds later "SOLD!". I'd already put my card down and it took the auctioneer several tries "Can I have your number?!!!" before I realized I'd won this -

What it is, is a 16th century Edo period katana. But not just any katana, it's a shobu zukuri (scalpel tip). Made only briefly and for one thing, to pierce Mongol armor! It gets better, the script is reversed and can only be read in a mirror. There were 39 sword makers qualified to build swords for the emperor and 9 that were very special. Reverse script swordmaker was one of the 9. The scabbard is from the Sino-Russian war late 1890s. The IJN/IJA did not require heirloom blades to be modified then to fit standard furniture as they did during WW2. Most that you find from WW2 have only partial signatures as the tang was shortened to fit the new type grip. This one only has one extra hole drilled and the original grip would have looked like this -

So, long story summary: I bought a rare 16th century samurai sword for $50 at auction.I believe the cheap Chinese samurai swords waved off all the serious buyers from looking at anything on those tables closely. The funniest part was when I paid for the sword and pulled the blade from the scabbard. I had an immediate high offer from one guy and incredulity from the others. I declined and there was actual anger directed at the auctioneer for not displaying the sword correctly, they should take the sword back, it wasn't fair to the consignor, etc. Heh, everyone of those chumps could have picked it up and checked it out but did not.

/yippee x infinity

Are you going to submit it for formal kantei (appraisal) to identify the mei (signature)?

On first look of the pictures you posted, it kinda sorta looks like it may have been shinogi-zukuri cut down (or repaired) to look like shobu-zukuri.

But, pictures are no way to pass an evaluation of a blade - I am most likely wrong.

You may have just won the 'lottery' - best of luck!

 

[soundmotor]

Are you going to submit it for formal kantei (appraisal) to identify the mei (signature)?

On first look of the pictures you posted, it kinda sorta looks like it may have been shinogi-zukuri cut down (or repaired) to look like shobu-zukuri.

But, pictures are no way to pass an evaluation of a blade - I am most likely wrong.

You may have just won the 'lottery' - best of luck!

Not cut down and no fatal flaws, OAL is ~36". I know the maker and hope it checks out. A collector in Japan helped me figure that out. He even sent me a set of small stones to bring out the hamon as a test with the longest email I've ever received on how to do it properly. I would love to have it papered when (eventually) there is a kantei near me. I don't want to fly with it and lose or damage it though. I decided not to have it polished & sharpened, ~2 year wait, $100/inch, only 2 guys in the US that can do it. I may go the shirasaya route to protect it. Right now it resides in a length of copper pipe.

 

[soundmotor]

You may have just won the 'lottery' - best of luck!

I've had it for a few years, I did not just get it and have had a bit of time to research it further. There is only one example by this maker extant on the web. It resides in a museum of natural history in another country. It has the scabbard, handle, and all the fittings but is the same blade style, apparently this maker's specialty. Condition is spectacular as was the acquisition fee for it. Mine is a blade & habaki only. The habaki is stunning though IMO. I don't have any plans to sell it as I've always wanted one. There is something else about mine. The shape is perfect, it could not be improved upon and is more like a piece of sculpture. It is amazing when you can see that every line, angle, and ratio was considered by the maker and then rendered in steel. It gets a "Wow!" from me every time I look at it.

I have zero qualification to make judgements on these blades. However, I read as much as I could on them to get the basics under my belt. The reason was that they show up often at auctions and estate sales. Further, they tend to sell for quite a bit. I figured I better have a good idea what I was looking at in case I decided to bid or buy. This was actually the first one I ever bid on but I passed on many more before it. Either they had a fatal flaw such as de-lamination, deep nicks, deep rust, etc. or they were mass-produced shin-gunto WW2 ones. I've watched many examples of those go off the charts from furious bidding. I really don't think the bidders understood what they were bidding on but heard that samurai swords are valuable. Only one time since have I actively bid on one and I stopped when I realized that after the fees I would be beyond retail if and only if the sword was everything I thought it was.

 

[grumpy]

An amazing buy ! I am not much of a "sword" guy but that is one I would love to just hold for a moment. If it could only tell stories....

 

[Erik Tracy]

I've had it for a few years, I did not just get it and have had a bit of time to research it further. There is only one example by this maker extant on the web. It resides in a museum of natural history in another country. It has the scabbard, handle, and all the fittings but is the same blade style, apparently this maker's specialty. Condition is spectacular as was the acquisition fee for it. Mine is a blade & habaki only. The habaki is stunning though IMO. I don't have any plans to sell it as I've always wanted one. There is something else about mine. The shape is perfect, it could not be improved upon and is more like a piece of sculpture. It is amazing when you can see that every line, angle, and ratio was considered by the maker and then rendered in steel. It gets a "Wow!" from me every time I look at it.

I have zero qualification to make judgements on these blades. However, I read as much as I could on them to get the basics under my belt. The reason was that they show up often at auctions and estate sales. Further, they tend to sell for quite a bit. I figured I better have a good idea what I was looking at in case I decided to bid or buy. This was actually the first one I ever bid on but I passed on many more before it. Either they had a fatal flaw such as de-lamination, deep nicks, deep rust, etc. or they were mass-produced shin-gunto WW2 ones. I've watched many examples of those go off the charts from furious bidding. I really don't think the bidders understood what they were bidding on but heard that samurai swords are valuable. Only one time since have I actively bid on one and I stopped when I realized that after the fees I would be beyond retail if and only if the sword was everything I thought it was.

Sword collecting is fun but can be very expensive and there are lots of pitfalls if you don't know the territory.

Sounds like you've done some homework.

If you were able to take some better pictures from nakago to kissaki (tang to tip) I know some very qualified togishi (polishers) who could possibly add some clues to the overall picture, maybe give you an idea for a proper appraisal or even a recommendation for restoration. If you are sitting on a rare blade, you really should consider at least insuring its value.

The owner of a rare and quality blade really should consider themselves as a 'caretaker' so that it can be appreciated for future generations.

 

[Erik Tracy]

Since we are momentarily talking swords....

I had this blade given the full treatment of a show polish, custom fittings, handle and saya.

It was forged by Bob Engnath before he passed away and was commissioned for another buyer who could not afford to have it finished so I picked it up with the promise of giving it the proper treatment.

It is a copy of a katana called "Yamaubagiri" by the swordsmith Kunihiro, 1590, reminiscent of Nambokucho style - very robust.

And a nice shot of the hamon

 

[soundmotor]

Sword collecting is fun but can be very expensive and there are lots of pitfalls if you don't know the territory.

I most certainly do not. Indeed, I may only know enough to be dangerous.

At best getting this one was my blind & dumb luck with a major helping of right place, right time.

Beautiful sword BTW.

 

[grumpy]

Sword collecting is fun but can be very expensive and there are lots of pitfalls if you don't know the territory.

Sounds like you've done some homework.

If you were able to take some better pictures from nakago to kissaki (tang to tip) I know some very qualified togishi (polishers) who could possibly add some clues to the overall picture, maybe give you an idea for a proper appraisal or even a recommendation for restoration. If you are sitting on a rare blade, you really should consider at least insuring its value.

The owner of a rare and quality blade really should consider themselves as a 'caretaker' so that it can be appreciated for future generations.

I would have to agree many times over ! At the very least it should be insured for a realistic replacement cost.

 

[soundmotor]

An amazing buy ! I am not much of a "sword" guy but that is one I would love to just hold for a moment. If it could only tell stories....

Regarding the stories, yes indeed. These were martial weapons during an incredibly violent period of Japanese history. I'll leave it at that. I am a firm believer that luck is when opportunity meets preparation. I was extremely fortunate to at least recognize that the sword was probably real but also could have been ruined inside the scabbard. I've pulled many to see rust along the entire length of the blade and due to the laminated steel composition, that is devastating. I set my top bid pretty low and would not have gone more than a few before I bailed. The little voice in my head kept saying "All these sword buyers know something you don't......".

 

[Daunia 70]

A victorian Ellis & Sons (Sheffield,UK) silver and mother of pearl made folding fruit knife from 1899.

 

[soundmotor]

English knives, not many but this one is a peach. Estate sale buy, sold as a letter opener, it's a muff dagger by M. Klaas (not Robert Klaas). It has the kissing cranes mark and is English made not Solingen, Germany. Solid mother of pearl handle, sterling fittings, and wickedly sharp blued steel double-edge blade. It is an odd but very cool knife and why you go to estate sales -

 

[grumpy]

Due to this thread I went looking for a local show. Found one and heading there later today. May be wishful thinking but im hoping to run across some early Bucklite's. Should be fun poking around either way.

 

[Daunia 70]

Due to this thread I went looking for a local show. Found one and heading there later today. May be wishful thinking but im hoping to run across some early Bucklite's. Should be fun poking around either way.

Best of luck!

 

[soundmotor]

Should be fun poking around either way.

I always find something, usually something I'd never thought about. Looking forward to the report.

 

[MaxxVolume]

A collaboration between Buck Knives and custom maker Tom Mayo gave us the Buck/Mayo TNT, which I would consider to be the perfect "Gentleman`s EDC knife"....slim and trim, all Titanium frame lock, 3-inch blade of S30V, heat-treated by Paul Bos (the Jimi Hendrix of heat-treating), it weighs in at a feather-light 3 ounces....

 

[grumpy]

Was lots of junk. It was also a gun show but there were knives too, but not much old, an what was old was VERY expensive. Sort of a let down but still enjoyed walking around a bit. Will still keep an eye out.

 

[soundmotor]

Was lots of junk. It was also a gun show but there were knives too, but not much old, an what was old was VERY expensive. Sort of a let down but still enjoyed walking around a bit. Will still keep an eye out.

I stopped going to the combined ones. They tend to be gun shows first with just enough knives to make it into the billing.

 

[grumpy]

I stopped going to the combined ones. They tend to be gun shows first with just enough knives to make it into the billing.

Ya know I don't mind gun shows. Its when its the all AR15/SKS show they lose me. That's what this one was.

 

[SA-708]

Another shift to something different.

This is a numbered collector's edition knife, made by Schrade (tang stamp is branded Ulster) in 1985, commemorating the 75th anniversary of the Boy Scouts of America. I bought this at an estate sale last year, attracted to it since I completed my Eagle Scout in 1985. It also fits into my collection of pre-bankruptcy Schrade knives.