The Littlest Heil
- Thread starter wualta
- Start date
Spikedart
what's on my mind
how about that?
Well, that is just pretty cool. Most appreciated. Wish I had taken a pic of my little round ones when I dropped them on top of 2 of my 3 Ohm F's with modeling clay!
Just found a pic with all 3 heads together, just as I was about to send them in to Ohm in return for the F2's that I still have. I still have fond memories of 3 F's (one was a center channel) chugging away at the same time in a 150 square ft room off a pair of Dyna 400's. My first ex liked it because it "tickled her butt" when I played reggae music. Well said.
Well, that is just pretty cool. Most appreciated. Wish I had taken a pic of my little round ones when I dropped them on top of 2 of my 3 Ohm F's with modeling clay!
Just found a pic with all 3 heads together, just as I was about to send them in to Ohm in return for the F2's that I still have. I still have fond memories of 3 F's (one was a center channel) chugging away at the same time in a 150 square ft room off a pair of Dyna 400's. My first ex liked it because it "tickled her butt" when I played reggae music. Well said.
nexus
Super Member
2005
just to add to this old, old thread..
the 2005s were my first store-bought speaker
my advice to anyone contemplating a restoration of these....to forget it.
now i had prior experiences with building my own speakers, though i had no money to speak of then and could not afford the good drivers and components like the stuff from speakerlab, so my source was mcgee radio corp and that old radio shack book (as you are all aware of these old outfits here i'm sure !). i was not getting anything like a hi fidelity sound from these some-time huge chunks of particle board.
so i was listening (bumming) at the local hi-end audio shop and was impressed by the early heils and ess offerings having loved the early translinear and transtatic (non-heil).
so...
i bought the 2005's based on a good review in high fidelity and about 10 minutes of listening at the local lafayette store listening room (the guy just demo'ed with some carpenters lps he had, can you dig it?
) and the reality of what i was doing didn't set in until about 3 weeks later when the left heil "power ring" tweeter blew and i had to wait 5 weeks for a replacement.
when said replacement arrived at the lafayette store i rushed down and got it home...only to find out that it was of a different earlier design which stuck out in front and bulged the grill cloth.
this power ring version is nothing like the AMT. it was crossed over too low (1250 hz, 12db/octv) suffered from an annoying resonance that all my experiments with cotton, foam and whatnot could not control, and had a tendency to burnout like nothing else.
the woofer was a ten inch paper cone in a ported box and superficially resembled the early AMT woofer but was not much like it. it had no midrange at all AND no bass either. these speakers were so wimpy that i wanted to send them a get well card..and some exlax...
i was stuck with them so i tried sealing up the port and adding an 11 inch passive radiator from mcgee on the back..no joy there either.
i should have gotten large advents or the better speakerlab offerings at least but i could not even sell these for fifty bucks! only one guy came out to hear them and left after about 15 mins of listening to some elp and some orchestral music.
so be warned! these are not ess or heil and i wonder who made them for lafayette (which was actually a much nicer and overall better outfit than rat shack).
eventually i cannabilized them and tried a setup with the power ring on top of a pair of ev interface b's...still no joy there either.:thumbsdn:
just to add to this old, old thread..
the 2005s were my first store-bought speaker
my advice to anyone contemplating a restoration of these....to forget it.
now i had prior experiences with building my own speakers, though i had no money to speak of then and could not afford the good drivers and components like the stuff from speakerlab, so my source was mcgee radio corp and that old radio shack book (as you are all aware of these old outfits here i'm sure !). i was not getting anything like a hi fidelity sound from these some-time huge chunks of particle board.
so i was listening (bumming) at the local hi-end audio shop and was impressed by the early heils and ess offerings having loved the early translinear and transtatic (non-heil).
so...
i bought the 2005's based on a good review in high fidelity and about 10 minutes of listening at the local lafayette store listening room (the guy just demo'ed with some carpenters lps he had, can you dig it?
) and the reality of what i was doing didn't set in until about 3 weeks later when the left heil "power ring" tweeter blew and i had to wait 5 weeks for a replacement. when said replacement arrived at the lafayette store i rushed down and got it home...only to find out that it was of a different earlier design which stuck out in front and bulged the grill cloth.
this power ring version is nothing like the AMT. it was crossed over too low (1250 hz, 12db/octv) suffered from an annoying resonance that all my experiments with cotton, foam and whatnot could not control, and had a tendency to burnout like nothing else.
the woofer was a ten inch paper cone in a ported box and superficially resembled the early AMT woofer but was not much like it. it had no midrange at all AND no bass either. these speakers were so wimpy that i wanted to send them a get well card..and some exlax...
i was stuck with them so i tried sealing up the port and adding an 11 inch passive radiator from mcgee on the back..no joy there either.
i should have gotten large advents or the better speakerlab offerings at least but i could not even sell these for fifty bucks! only one guy came out to hear them and left after about 15 mins of listening to some elp and some orchestral music.
so be warned! these are not ess or heil and i wonder who made them for lafayette (which was actually a much nicer and overall better outfit than rat shack).
eventually i cannabilized them and tried a setup with the power ring on top of a pair of ev interface b's...still no joy there either.:thumbsdn:
Interesting thread, never really experienced the op's direction qualities of the Great Heil.
Obvioulsy the sound different dirrectly in front, but the sound stage is very wide-not so tall as wide, but better then most speakers.
Personally I prefer the dipole sound, especially when you get up and move around as the sound and detail carry around the room much better, without sacrificing any of the imaging when you are seated in your listening position.
Can't comment on the those speaker specifically, I remembering seeing them in the old catalogs, but that's it.
The twin 10" woofers and transition driver of the AMT3 is a much better match for the larger Heil than a single sealed 10" woofer. Adding a sub would help, but that opens up another can of wroms.
Obvioulsy the sound different dirrectly in front, but the sound stage is very wide-not so tall as wide, but better then most speakers.
Personally I prefer the dipole sound, especially when you get up and move around as the sound and detail carry around the room much better, without sacrificing any of the imaging when you are seated in your listening position.
Can't comment on the those speaker specifically, I remembering seeing them in the old catalogs, but that's it.
The twin 10" woofers and transition driver of the AMT3 is a much better match for the larger Heil than a single sealed 10" woofer. Adding a sub would help, but that opens up another can of wroms.
Wow! an old thread both revived and reviled! I can certainly understand why someone would become frustrated with one of ESS's house-brand speakers. Look up the old Fortura thread and you'll see what I mean. But not an AMT? Not ESS or Heil? I don't know of anyone else licensed to make such a thing back then. [nor anyone licensed to decide what's a Heil and what's not]
I've gone back and corrected my earlier post so it doesn't stupidly imply that Heils beam both horizontally and vertically. I must've assumed that everyone knows that Heils don't beam horizontally and went on talking as if it were intuitively obvious, a dreaded phrase from school days. Argh! Thanks for pointing it out, automojo.
I too prefer the dipole sound and agree 100% that the Heil, whatever size it is, should hand off to a driver of about the same physical size (a 6" driver, maybe a 5", for the Great Heil is just about right). I think the designers could've gotten away with 6" drivers for the 2-ways with mini-Heils too. The Performance Series 3-ways would've been perfect if only they'd had the dipole mini-Heil. But nooooo.
I've gone back and corrected my earlier post so it doesn't stupidly imply that Heils beam both horizontally and vertically. I must've assumed that everyone knows that Heils don't beam horizontally and went on talking as if it were intuitively obvious, a dreaded phrase from school days. Argh! Thanks for pointing it out, automojo.
I too prefer the dipole sound and agree 100% that the Heil, whatever size it is, should hand off to a driver of about the same physical size (a 6" driver, maybe a 5", for the Great Heil is just about right). I think the designers could've gotten away with 6" drivers for the 2-ways with mini-Heils too. The Performance Series 3-ways would've been perfect if only they'd had the dipole mini-Heil. But nooooo.
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The PS1220's with there mid driver are close to the AMT#'s laking the dipole Great Heil, and one active woofer.
I think the mini, or 3/4 dipole AMT would go great with a single 7-8 woofer, one that has a smooth response, efficient, with good transient response,and no peaks, like the later PS woofers.
I think the mistake many make is using a Morel woofer, or the like, a good quality woofer, that has poor transinet response and is just plain slow, and inefficient.
You really need close to a prosound woofer to keep up, but one that is free from wierd impendance peaks, and response peaks, and it's response drops off farily smoothly, as the Heils seem to benefit from a generious driver overlap, and gradual crossover slopes. Paper cones seem to be the best bet.
If the complimenting driver is "slow", this will only aggrevate the problem.
There is so much info on using the proper driver (woofer) type with a DIY Heil design you have to wonder why so still go down that road.
Perhaps some are merely skimming the threads, without getting the real information.
I guess I can see that with alot of my personal threads- as I tend to ramble too much, and tend to get away from a more proper format-something which I will try not to do in the future.:thmbsp:
I think the mini, or 3/4 dipole AMT would go great with a single 7-8 woofer, one that has a smooth response, efficient, with good transient response,and no peaks, like the later PS woofers.
I think the mistake many make is using a Morel woofer, or the like, a good quality woofer, that has poor transinet response and is just plain slow, and inefficient.
You really need close to a prosound woofer to keep up, but one that is free from wierd impendance peaks, and response peaks, and it's response drops off farily smoothly, as the Heils seem to benefit from a generious driver overlap, and gradual crossover slopes. Paper cones seem to be the best bet.
If the complimenting driver is "slow", this will only aggrevate the problem.
There is so much info on using the proper driver (woofer) type with a DIY Heil design you have to wonder why so still go down that road.
Perhaps some are merely skimming the threads, without getting the real information.
I guess I can see that with alot of my personal threads- as I tend to ramble too much, and tend to get away from a more proper format-something which I will try not to do in the future.:thmbsp:
just to add to this old, old thread..
the 2005s were my first store-bought speaker
my advice to anyone contemplating a restoration of these....to forget it.
now i had prior experiences with building my own speakers, though i had no money to speak of then and could not afford the good drivers and components like the stuff from speakerlab, so my source was mcgee radio corp and that old radio shack book (as you are all aware of these old outfits here i'm sure !). i was not getting anything like a hi fidelity sound from these some-time huge chunks of particle board.
so i was listening (bumming) at the local hi-end audio shop and was impressed by the early heils and ess offerings having loved the early translinear and transtatic (non-heil).
so...
i bought the 2005's based on a good review in high fidelity and about 10 minutes of listening at the local lafayette store listening room (the guy just demo'ed with some carpenters lps he had, can you dig it?
when said replacement arrived at the lafayette store i rushed down and got it home...only to find out that it was of a different earlier design which stuck out in front and bulged the grill cloth.
this power ring version is nothing like the AMT. it was crossed over too low (1250 hz, 12db/octv) suffered from an annoying resonance that all my experiments with cotton, foam and whatnot could not control, and had a tendency to burnout like nothing else.
the woofer was a ten inch paper cone in a ported box and superficially resembled the early AMT woofer but was not much like it. it had no midrange at all AND no bass either. these speakers were so wimpy that i wanted to send them a get well card..and some exlax...
i was stuck with them so i tried sealing up the port and adding an 11 inch passive radiator from mcgee on the back..no joy there either.
i should have gotten large advents or the better speakerlab offerings at least but i could not even sell these for fifty bucks! only one guy came out to hear them and left after about 15 mins of listening to some elp and some orchestral music.
so be warned! these are not ess or heil and i wonder who made them for lafayette (which was actually a much nicer and overall better outfit than rat shack).
eventually i cannabilized them and tried a setup with the power ring on top of a pair of ev interface b's...still no joy there either.:thumbsdn:
This post actually is very close to how i feel about those! And, it actually brought a smile to my insides that someone who's toiled with the power ring design shares my ugliest sentiments about them, to a T lol.
I disagree with an earlier post stating a high quality woofer is a poor match for the amt, when quite the opposite is true actually. If one can afford a pair of Dynaudio drivers in any of their 7" 8" or 10" varieties, one might see more into high quality drivers.
To find a good fast match with superb time alignment in a mid-woofer or woofer, you have to buy from Europe and the UK, almost exclusively. Now that Vifa and Peerless are under the Tymphany umbrella, they are rapidly discontinuing poor selling models in the European market. Chances are, that even SEAS will shed some good woofer builds in the very near future. 
nexus
Super Member
i suppose ess built these power ring abortions for lafayette, but what were they thinking!? and i did experiment with crossing them over as high as 4000 hz but then they would have required a midrange and so then what was the point? i also looked in to replacing them with the original amt heil but ess wanted a small fortune for them and i would still have suck bass and mids. i was curious about my old 2005s since i just came across the old invoice from lafayette last week while cleaning out an old file cabinet. got me wondering so i searched AK and...here i am!
Just so we're straight, the Power Ring Heil is a monopole. The tweeter in the 2005 is a dipole, as described.
I'm not a fan of the Power Ring Heil myself. And I should add that I've never heard the Criterion 2005 all-up, but I'm prepared to believe it sounded bad. Again, see the old Fortura thread.
Still skeptical? Fortunately ESS's brochures are archived.
I'm not a fan of the Power Ring Heil myself. And I should add that I've never heard the Criterion 2005 all-up, but I'm prepared to believe it sounded bad. Again, see the old Fortura thread.
Still skeptical? Fortunately ESS's brochures are archived.
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nexus
Super Member
sorry but the invoice even refers to them as "power ring". and they were definitely dipoles as the cab was made open in the rear for the backwave to emit.
i believe this driver was also offered in a bookshelf speaker with the rear of the driver sealed up to make it monopole.
Then you'll have to take your argument to ESS and their own brochures, which anyone reading this is free to look up. I didn't start this thread to discuss a different tweeter, and I certainly didn't start it to talk about the speaker this particular tweeter was installed in. I haven't heard it. But rave on, if you like.
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nexus
Super Member
actually all i have to refer to is the lafayette catalog and the invoice:yes: the invoice has the salesman writing that "left powering is blown ordered replacement" so maybe official ess publicity tried to distance themselves from this utter flop and then ressurrected the "powering" in another form for the bookshelf speaker?
well it really doesn't matter. my purpose here was to forewarn anyone from buying a pair of these on ebay expecting a real AMT speaker and wasting money and time restoring them.:sigh:
well it really doesn't matter. my purpose here was to forewarn anyone from buying a pair of these on ebay expecting a real AMT speaker and wasting money and time restoring them.:sigh:
nexus
Super Member
6 khz is awful high for a driver that is supposed to be AMT! the 2005 was crossed over at 1250 and i changed it to 2500 and it still squeaked and i by no means listened at very loud levels. but then you add a midrange and the whole speaker is rebuilt and so what is the point? just build a proper AMT and forget these!
btw, my power ring looked exactly like the photos posted here (except for the replacement driver i received).
for my final words on these 2005s, i will just add the observation that so few of these turkeys must have been sold as they almost never show up on ebay or garage sales anymore. my local lafayette store back then told me they were discontinued after less then a year, but i vaguely remember another attempt by lafayette with a bookshelf version and a monopole power ring that didn't last long either. good luck all who wish to endeavor with these 'classic':thumbsdn: speakers. not one of audio's high moments in the seventies!
btw, my power ring looked exactly like the photos posted here (except for the replacement driver i received).
for my final words on these 2005s, i will just add the observation that so few of these turkeys must have been sold as they almost never show up on ebay or garage sales anymore. my local lafayette store back then told me they were discontinued after less then a year, but i vaguely remember another attempt by lafayette with a bookshelf version and a monopole power ring that didn't last long either. good luck all who wish to endeavor with these 'classic':thumbsdn: speakers. not one of audio's high moments in the seventies!
dnewma04
The Healer
All Heil drivers benefit greatly from having the crossover point raised. Try to run them at ~1khz like many of the ESS designs and you get strident, annoying sound. The midrange of the AMT3 is what allowed it to perform as well as it did.
When I was an active thrifter, I found 3 sets over the course of 5 years. I suspect that you are right that they didn't sell well, because there isn't much info on the internet, but I'm not sure they are very rare. I usually grab the tweeters, trash the rest and DIY with them, paired up with a decent dome mid or a small diameter cone mid and they are quite good.
When I was an active thrifter, I found 3 sets over the course of 5 years. I suspect that you are right that they didn't sell well, because there isn't much info on the internet, but I'm not sure they are very rare. I usually grab the tweeters, trash the rest and DIY with them, paired up with a decent dome mid or a small diameter cone mid and they are quite good.
Jim Pearce
Active Member
Love these tweeters.
I noticed that they are a direct drop-in fit for KLH 6.
What do any of you have to say about that?
Just to be sure, these are from the performance series. PS 8. 2 way with a passive radiator in the back.
Also called Tempest.
I noticed that they are a direct drop-in fit for KLH 6.
What do any of you have to say about that?
Just to be sure, these are from the performance series. PS 8. 2 way with a passive radiator in the back.
Also called Tempest.