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The Littlest Heil

PS-8 crossed at 2.4KHz, according to the manual, and it didn't sound thin or screechy in a 2-way design with 8" woofer — it sounded great. I'm using one now with a Scanspeak D75 3" dome midrange, which comes in at 1KHz, and I let them play together till the D75 rolls off naturally around 7KHz, while the AMT continues way on up to 22KHz or something like that. Where they play together, the D75 adds body and soul to the AMT's "fast as Light."

I don't use a PBR, but the enclosure has no back, so the 8" woofer is dipolar (or bipolar?) The enclosure is 15" deep so the front and rear waves never meet, and don't phase-cancel — Bass is a solid 50Hz which I extend downwards with stereo Subs.

I made the D75 mid di- (or bi-polar) too — it comes with thick felt glued to the back to seal it, but peel that off and the back is full of perforated holes allowing the full rear wave out. Walking between the speakers I keep wanting to say "Excuse me, excuse me" to the Musicians because they're so real and dimensional.

Too bad the Power Ring tweeter isn't open at the back, and the cabinet is far too narrow to allow a Great Heil. I tried adding a rear-firing tweeter, but heard no 3D benefit and removed it.

Has anyone tried opening up the Power Ring? It doesn't look difficult to do. Anyone know what's in there?
 
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bimasta said:
PS-8 crossed at 2.4KHz, according to the manual, and it didn't sound thin or screechy in a 2-way design with 8" woofer — it sounded great. I'm using one now with a Scanspeak D75 3" dome midrange, which comes in at 1KHz, and I let them play together till the D75 rolls off naturally around 7KHz, while the AMT continues way on up to 22KHz or something like that. Where they play together, the D75 adds body and soul to the AMT's "fast as Light."

I don't use a PBR, but the enclosure has no back, so the 8" woofer is dipolar (or bipolar?) The enclosure is 15" deep so the front and rear waves never meet, and don't phase-cancel — Bass is a solid 50Hz which I extend downwards with stereo Subs.

I made the D75 mid di- (or bi-polar) too — it comes with thick felt glued to the back to seal it, but peel that off and the back is full of perforated holes allowing the full rear wave out. Walking between the speakers I keep wanting to say "Excuse me, excuse me" to the Musicians because they're so real and dimensional.

Too bad the Power Ring tweeter isn't open at the back, and the cabinet is far too narrow to allow a Great Heil. I tried adding a rear-firing tweeter, but heard no 3D benefit and removed it.

Has anyone tried opening up the Power Ring? It doesn't look difficult to do. Anyone know what's in there?
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I used to drink PBR when I lived in Wisconsin.
I had poke rt16 towers, still do and they are great, patented bottom firing port they dig deep.
In those days all I had was a little 20 watt marantz. I have a couple of drinks and turn it up to 1000 or 2000 or something and pop. There went the tri-laminate domes.
So, I took those power rings and set them on top and ran some packing tape onu.upover them and down the sides of the towers.I stuffed hand towels in the void where the trilaminate dome tweeters were.
I have one comment.

Omg.

I'm pretty sure they go far beyond 22, I think 32 actually.
And the dispersion is quite something, best I ever heard.
Same story with these as the tri laminate domes.
I had collected quite a slew of them that needed to be thrown away.
but of course I love them and could not do it. I eventually found out that if you peel that little piece of tape off there's something like looks like a kitchen exhaustvent screen but it is accordion fold mylar with impregnated something. Escapes me.
so I had been paying like 70 bucks a piece and I had six of them and finally I'm like OMG I need to do something and I started researching and low and behold there is that little screen in there the accordion thing.
So they're 65 bucks a piece. I thought go for it but then I burnt for more.
I started putting 1:00 amp fuses in line. Problem solved but I used a lot of fuses LOL.
$0.32, not $68.
Where I found those first two ones was on the curb in 2000 when I came back to Wisconsin after 25 years in Florida.
I took them in the basement and knew nothing about surrounds which of course our phone and were shot but I fired them up none the less and I heard something so crisp that I thought... I don't know what I thought but I knew I had never heard anything like it. And those damn tweeters weighed 3 lb LOL
I drag those things around for 10 years to three different states and when I got to Oklahoma in 2010, I only brought with me three tool boxes and two stereos and basically the clothes on my back LOL. 2006, tough times.
That's when I started putting stereo things together.
Fast forward to 2020 and I am in Norman instead of Thackerville at a course I worked, the casino.
I still have those Polk RT 16th and they are fabulous, I've long since replaced the trilaminate domes and have an extra pair as well. The roofers are some weird oddball size like 7 5/8 or 7/8 and I have two of those extras as well, butyl surrounds.
I think 700 each went new oh, I bought them from a guy in Dallas for a buck 75.
I have 22 pairs of loudspeakers now Acoustic Research 2A X3 pair and ADSL 1290s three pairs of KLH six, two are consecutive. KLH 17 KLH 32s. Had to pair of ola but sold them because they didn't go high enough for me....and those extra drivers I mentioned and I popped some KLH 6 is in the garage sometime ago and I was thinking that this is such a damn good speaker I wonder if it would benefit from a tweeter upgrade and lo and behold again that sucker drops right in there.

a very knowledgeable KLH person on classic speaker pages told me that they would drop right in and needed no crossover modification if I thought they sounded right.
Sound as clear as light.

Sorry, Henry but this is the one where I got everything right.
I have not done it yet but I know that it will be like that.
 
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I'm using the original ESS crossovers to divide the 8" Woofer and small AMT (and added a 20mf cap to bring in the D75 dome Midrange). All xover components, electrolytics included, are ancient.

It's almost a condition of faith here on AK, indeed almost a condition of joining AK, that old caps in vintage gear MUST be replaced. It's also said that film caps are vastly better than any 'lytics whether old or new.

But they sound really really good. Do I have to?
 
Well, I have 2 pair of ESS xovers that were recently recapped by someone else. These play alongside the other ESS speakers in the collection and I'm not hearing any differences in performance between them. Now I am not going to move all the speakers around, tear them apart and go through the expense and down time to have this recapping done when i'm not hearing differences in the ones already done. I am also, at this point in life more interested in enjoying the music rather then being concerned whether the technical performance capabilities are EXACTLY the same as they were 45 years ago. So for me, and others will disagree, No you don't have to.
 
jcidave said:
Well, I have 2 pair of ESS xovers that were recently recapped by someone else. These play alongside the other ESS speakers in the collection and I'm not hearing any differences in performance between them. Now I am not going to move all the speakers around, tear them apart and go through the expense and down time to have this recapping done when i'm not hearing differences in the ones already done. I am also, at this point in life more interested in enjoying the music rather then being concerned whether the technical performance capabilities are EXACTLY the same as they were 45 years ago. So for me, and others will disagree, No you don't have to.
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I'm glad somebody said it.
 
bimasta said:
I'm using the original ESS crossovers to divide the 8" Woofer and small AMT (and added a 20mf cap to bring in the D75 dome Midrange). All xover components, electrolytics included, are ancient.

It's almost a condition of faith here on AK, indeed almost a condition of joining AK, that old caps in vintage gear MUST be replaced. It's also said that film caps are vastly better than any 'lytics whether old or new.

But they sound really really good. Do I have to?
Click to expand...
Hey.
I just realized I saved the crossovers too.
I forgotten that I've been traipsing around the country with those for 20 years.
 
What were you using in place of the old xovers? If so, compare to the old ones and tell us.

Or were you not using the AMTs, and thus nor the xover?

If so, try them now and tell us. (I figured out the wiring color-code, if you need.) Do you think, like me, they're fine and it's hard to imagine much better? I look at prices of the "premium caps" ($650 and up for one) — and though @automojo tells us they make a big difference and not to cheap out, it's too much for me when I'm a happy camper using the old caps not worth scrap.
 
Now that I think about it, here's what happened. The crossovers came with a pair of tweeters that I bought.
I have so much junk around here that I forget what I have.
It means zilch to me when I look at a set of crossovers.
Several times when I have used those tweeters I have had to look up the polarity each time. I can't remember if blue is positive or purple is positive.
And while we're on the subject, I have heard that some speaker designers have the polarity reversed and also that some people reverse the polarity on their own. What's up with all of that? What's your opinion as to when or when it might not be applicable or appropriate?
 
I wish I could explain the reasoning with an out of phase driver. It is my understanding that the ESS AMT-3 has the upper bass 6.5 inch woofer wired out of phase with the 2-10 inch woofers. Since its handling different frequencies from the 2-10s, (crossover at 250 hz from the 10s and 700 hz to the Heil ) maybe the out of phase wiring makes its output more sonically noticeable. If Porkloin or Automojo are monitoring this thread and since they have done extensive work on the AMT3, maybe they can comment.
 
The reverse phase has to do with the "order" of the crossover. e.g. in a 2-way design with a 2nd order xo, the tweeter phase will be reversed. Otherwise a frequency response "null" will appear at the crossover frequency. If you measure the system, reversing one drivers phase will either cause a notch or a level frequency response around the xo. Obviously, a level response is optimal.
 
puppet said:
The reverse phase has to do with the "order" of the crossover. e.g. in a 2-way design with a 2nd order xo, the tweeter phase will be reversed. Otherwise a frequency response "null" will appear at the crossover frequency. If you measure the system, reversing one drivers phase will either cause a notch or a level frequency response around the xo. Obviously, a level response is optimal.
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Thanks. I did pull up the xover schematic of the AMT3 on the ESS website. It does appear that the smaller woofer is wired in out of phase from the other drivers.
 
jcidave said:
I wish I could explain the reasoning with an out of phase driver. It is my understanding that the ESS AMT-3 has the upper bass 6.5 inch woofer wired out of phase with the 2-10 inch woofers. Since its handling different frequencies from the 2-10s, (crossover at 250 hz from the 10s and 700 hz to the Heil ) maybe the out of phase wiring makes its output more sonically noticeable. If Porkloin or Automojo are monitoring this thread and since they have done extensive work on the AMT3, maybe they can comment.
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Sure.
If you using the stock 6.5 transition driver-wired O.E. it blends in very well-no holes or cancellation. Some prefer it wired in phase. IMHO the differences are slight-but it seems more seamless wired out of phase.
Tried a number of different drivers-and like the stock trans driver the best in the AMT3's.
 
bimasta said:
What were you using in place of the old xovers? If so, compare to the old ones and tell us.

Or were you not using the AMTs, and thus nor the xover?

If so, try them now and tell us. (I figured out the wiring color-code, if you need.) Do you think, like me, they're fine and it's hard to imagine much better? I look at prices of the "premium caps" ($650 and up for one) — and though @automojo tells us they make a big difference and not to cheap out, it's too much for me when I'm a happy camper using the old caps not worth scrap.
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IMHO is a great improvement.
The caps I had good luck with are far from $650 per cap.
Say for example-you went with Mundorf Evo Oils in the mid/Heil circuit. 4x 33uf's are around $145 on Ebay.
Going with the better option-a 2/3 Evo Oil-1/3 Jantzen Superior Z runs around $315.68for 8caps-roughly $39.50 per cap.
Not bad IMHO for the sonic improvements.
Sure-I was skeptical too-but until you take the plunge-in your system-it's just speculation that you are hearing the Heils best.
Obviously you have to take your system into account as a whole-understand how it really "sounds" as to the level of improvements-but even in my experience-swamping in a few more modest performing pieces as source/driving components-it's still a worth while investment.
People spend alot more on interconnect-input wires etc-that most times have much less sonic improvement in your system.
Gee's descriptions are pretty much spot on-so choosing the right caps (especially with budget film caps-avoiding the clunkers) for your speakers/systems should not be that difficult.
These 2 combinations where more "safe choices"-and don't alter the speakers sonic characteristics drastically.
Just remove an apparent layer of noise-and spread the notes out from the mix-so it's easier to really hear the music.
The biggest improvement on my 3's was shoring up the bass-with the 1040SF swap for the stock woofers, sealing the enclosure-and bracing the front baffles, and treating the interior with ceramic dampening compound. And swapping the stock poly internal damping for acoustic foam.
But the cap swap runs a close second-each time I get a good listen-it reminds me of how far these speakers have come from bone stock.
 
automojo said:
Sure.
If you using the stock 6.5 transition driver-wired O.E. it blends in very well-no holes or cancellation. Some prefer it wired in phase. IMHO the differences are slight-but it seems more seamless wired out of phase.
Tried a number of different drivers-and like the stock trans driver the best in the AMT3's.
Click to expand...

My 61-band RTA shows a smoother transition when wired in phase and a suck-out when wired out of phase.

Are you sure that you have your phasing right? It's not like you can put a battery on the Heil and watch it pop in or out to determine which is correct.
 
@automojo Thanks, Mojo.Yyou pretty much sold me, and the price of admission is easy. I'll follow up with some questions for you, if you don't mind.

I'll just have to stop listening to them and thinking I like them.

I'll also need a sudden immunity to the Speaker Rotation dance. See, I keep running into great ones, and falling in love with them too. So these Heils, even recapped to the ultimate, might give way to a new favorite and be sent to the closet.

After all, that's where they came from...
 
bimasta said:
@automojo Thanks, Mojo.Yyou pretty much sold me, and the price of admission is easy. I'll follow up with some questions for you, if you don't mind.

I'll just have to stop listening to them and thinking I like them.

I'll also need a sudden immunity to the Speaker Rotation dance. See, I keep running into great ones, and falling in love with them too. So these Heils, even recapped to the ultimate, might give way to a new favorite and be sent to the closet.

After all, that's where they came from...
Click to expand...
Sure-no worries-I totally get it.
 
toddalin said:
My 61-band RTA shows a smoother transition when wired in phase and a suck-out when wired out of phase.

Are you sure that you have your phasing right? It's not like you can put a battery on the Heil and watch it pop in or out to determine which is correct.
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Yes I am. Never heard of a Heil diaphragm wired in reverse. Maybe you have your speakers wired ass backward?! No clue-but what ever. Not jumping to conclusion on that one..
Measurements are what they are-they only tell you what something might tend to sound like, but does not take into account varying room acoustics/listening distance etc.
Never heard of the suck out when hooked up correctly, in but IMHO just as easy to swap and listen if it's a concern.
As mentioned-some like it one way-some the others. Maybe they have their drivers wired up wrong to begin with-explain the difference.
I really don't see a problem with either....wire it the way is sound best to your ears....
There was a specific reason ESS had them set up this way-the aforementioned null.
 
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