The new ATN-3600LE stylus from Audio Technica

[Andrei]

I don't know if this was discussed here before.
So Audio Technica released a new stylus for their uber popular AT3600 cartridge: the elyptical ATN-3600LE.

ATN3600LE

Compatible Turntables Audio-Technica turntables: AT-LP60X series, AT-LP60 series, AT-LP2D series, AT-PL300 series, AT-SB727, AT-SB2022, AT-LPGO-BT, AT-PL50.Other brands: Consult the turntable&rsqu ...

www.audio-technica.com

Not to be mistaken for the previous elyptical version from LP Gear.

I see that the tracking force is the same as for conical: 3,0 g to 4,0 g, with 3,5 being optimal.

I wonder, considering this rather high tracking force and all things being equal, if this new elyptical version would wear more the records compared to the conical version...I must confess that for some reason I am a big fan of the conical version...I would like to get the new elyptical but I am worried about the possible wear on my records....

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I prefer Elliptical styli tracking under 2 grams. Especially the .2x .7 tip radius. Conicals are less wearing at higher forces up to 4 grams.

 

[mr_petit]

the recommended 3-4gr vertical tracking force for an elliptical stylus is I think too much.
Given that the AT-3600L cartridge is not a sold consumer product by Audio technica (it's only brought to market through oem vendor back doors), and is usually fitted on cheaper turntables that dont have a VTF adjustment, I don't think this is a good product.
Audio technica even gave warnings on the at-3600L playing with a vtf of 3,5gr or higher potentially causing excessive record wear in a few of their older catalogs. An elliptical version only makes this worse. It certainly contradicts their previous statements.

 

[Lavane]

LP gear has an elliptical stylus on a carbon fiber cantilever that's been out for awhile. I bought one for my 3600L. I set it at 2.5g. It sounded ok, but in the end I preferred the conical stylus. I'm not using it at the moment though. I originally bought the cartridge for $14 after reading through the long thread on these. If I ever get a third deck I'll mount it and use it for playing lesser records.

 

[Taketheflame]

Yeah, count me in as another voice saying the VTF is higher than I'd prefer for an elliptical. I'd be hesitant to run one at 3.5 g for the claimed 300 hr lifespan.

Of course, I kind of fall into the camp that prefers .4 x .7 elliptical or conical if it's not a line contact class of stylus - more contact with the groove walls/gentler on records from what I've read on the matter. The finer ellipticals are really best for a high compliance design IMO.

 

[cafe latte]

I don't know if this was discussed here before.
So Audio Technica released a new stylus for their uber popular AT3600 cartridge: the elyptical ATN-3600LE.

ATN3600LE

Compatible Turntables Audio-Technica turntables: AT-LP60X series, AT-LP60 series, AT-LP2D series, AT-PL300 series, AT-SB727, AT-SB2022, AT-LPGO-BT, AT-PL50.Other brands: Consult the turntable&rsqu ...

www.audio-technica.com

Not to be mistaken for the previous elyptical version from LP Gear.

I see that the tracking force is the same as for conical: 3,0 g to 4,0 g, with 3,5 being optimal.

I wonder, considering this rather high tracking force and all things being equal, if this new elyptical version would wear more the records compared to the conical version...I must confess that for some reason I am a big fan of the conical version...I would like to get the new elyptical but I am worried about the possible wear on my records....

To answer your question yes. That is a massive tracking force for an elliptical.
Also at 2g the life of an elliptical is 300 hours BUT wear and tracking force is exponential not linear so 4g is not 150 hours it is much less as I found out.
I was sent a SPU elliptical which also tracks at 4g, I asked the owner how many hours as it was very worn and I was shocked to hear it was only 60 hours!!!
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Yeah, count me in as another voice saying the VTF is higher than I'd prefer for an elliptical. I'd be hesitant to run one at 3.5 g for the claimed 300 hr lifespan.

Of course, I kind of fall into the camp that prefers .4 x .7 elliptical or conical if it's not a line contact class of stylus - more contact with the groove walls/gentler on records from what I've read on the matter. The finer ellipticals are really best for a high compliance design IMO.

Not 300 hours at 3.5g

 

[Chet63]

what's with an elliptical styluses anyway? it looks like these are to be avoided at any cost? most of them are 2g or more tracking force, and as such they are already menace to records?

it's really crazy no one talks or write about it...it's like one big dirty secret...we are ruining our records and no one cares about it in the vinyl community...

 

[cafe latte]

what's with an elliptical styluses anyway? it looks like these are to be avoided at any cost? most of them are 2g or more tracking force, and as such they are already menace to records?

it's really crazy no one talks or write about it...it's like one big dirty secret...we are ruining our records and no one cares about it in the vinyl community...

2g on a 0.3x0.7 is not really an issue but 3.5 to 4g is way way too heavy for an elliptical.
When elliptical were invented tracking forces went down due to this issue, this was the start of high compliance carts tracking at 1g.
Today it seems like all this is forgotten and we see crazy things like this stylus and the SPU elliptical tracking at 4g, totally nuts.
Chris

 

[Taketheflame]

Not 300 hours at 3.5g

Yup, I've long been under the impression it's 300 hrs max for typical modern VTFs (1.75-2g or so), per some posts of yours that I remember. I imagine 3.5g would make short work of an elliptical..

 

[cafe latte]

Yeah, count me in as another voice saying the VTF is higher than I'd prefer for an elliptical. I'd be hesitant to run one at 3.5 g for the claimed 300 hr lifespan.

Of course, I kind of fall into the camp that prefers .4 x .7 elliptical or conical if it's not a line contact class of stylus - more contact with the groove walls/gentler on records from what I've read on the matter. The finer ellipticals are really best for a high compliance design IMO.

Micro ridge and similar are great for high compliance carts as the stylus lasts up to 2000 hours tracking so light.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Yup, I've long been under the impression it's 300 hrs max for typical modern VTFs (1.75-2g or so), per some posts of yours that I remember. I imagine 3.5g would make short work of an elliptical..

Very short work like the 60 hours life I saw in the spu.
Chris

 

[Caryw]

I think it is a good option for the non adjustable entry level tables. I wonder if you can actually hear a difference?

 

[DavidTT]

The more discussions I see lately on AK about stylus life the more I'm convinced that soon the "experts" here will recommend playing exactly one record between stylus changes.

I own hundreds of used bargain bin records that are 40+ years old and well loved and somehow most all of them sound great in spite of the vinyl-killing monster nails that have been drug through their grooves all that time.

 

[jrtrent]

I don't know if this was discussed here before.
So Audio Technica released a new stylus for their uber popular AT3600 cartridge: the elyptical ATN-3600LE.

It did get a mention last month on page 63 of this long-running thread:

$11 Chinese AT3600L Thread Mk. II - Champagne sound on a Beer budget!

Just noticed something interesting. AT have released two "new" stylii for the AT3600. A conical version AT3600LC, which looks just the same as the current AT3600L, and an elliptical version! The AT3600LE. It seems to have a carbon cantilever and has a .3 x .7 tip. Basically, the same as the...

audiokarma.org

I see that the tracking force is the same as for conical: 3,0 g to 4,0 g, with 3,5 being optimal.

I wonder, considering this rather high tracking force and all things being equal, if this new elyptical version would wear more the records compared to the conical version...I must confess that for some reason I am a big fan of the conical version...I would like to get the new elyptical but I am worried about the possible wear on my records....

I'm a big fan of the conical, too. I thought I was through with vinyl a few years ago, but my brother told me how much fun he was having with an older AT-LP60 that his son-in-law gave him, so I bought the current AT-LP60X. I think the AT3600L it uses sounds great. As to the elliptical issue, the material on record wear that I've seen has me not wanting to use one unless it tracks in the .75-1.5 gram range that used to be the norm for even modestly-priced cartridges. My last elliptical was the Shure M97xE that I tracked at 1.35 grams. When Shure stopped making styli for it, I moved on to a Sumiko Oyster, a .6 mil conical that I tracked at the importer's recommended 2.3 grams. That one also sounded great.

 

[cafe latte]

The more discussions I see lately on AK about stylus life the more I'm convinced that soon the "experts" here will recommend playing exactly one record between stylus changes.

I own hundreds of used bargain bin records that are 40+ years old and well loved and somehow most all of them sound great in spite of the vinyl-killing monster nails that have been drug through their grooves all that time.

David, you keep saying this but the stylus life talked about here is correct.
Pop over to VE and read stylus wear study 2 and the elliptical tracking at 2g was very worn at 296 hours which backs up what is said here.
Also saying that a Micro ridge lasts 1000 hours is hardly saying stylus dont last a long time just elliptical.
You may well have stylus that you feel are fine and have done more but it does not mean they are not badly worn. I got a micro ridge from a customer not long ago with 1800 hours on it. He was happy with it till he said recently when he said he had groove noise. The micro ridge was the most worn stylus I have ever seen, the ridges were totally gone the shoulders were starting to wear and the tip was blunt as it was badly bottoming out. This stylus was a mess long before the 1800 hours but he got used to the degredation.
I had another customer who had a Shure V15iii which he asked me to examine and he said it did not have a lot of hours despite its age as he listened to an hour here and there.
It too was a real mess very very very worn he too had got used to the change. When it was retipped he said he noticed groove noise on his most played records which is no surprise as the worn stylus had damaged the grooves.
Apart the stylus study it is well written that 300 hours is the finish line for a 2g tracking elliptical. I am not sure why you think this is not true when there is so much evidence that 300 hours is the end for an elliptical.
Chris

 

[jrtrent]

The more discussions I see lately on AK about stylus life the more I'm convinced that soon the "experts" here will recommend playing exactly one record between stylus changes.

I own hundreds of used bargain bin records that are 40+ years old and well loved and somehow most all of them sound great in spite of the vinyl-killing monster nails that have been drug through their grooves all that time.

That's been my experience, too, since starting to rebuild a modest record collection from the bargain bins at Half Price Books. I do visually inspect them, but I only turn down the ones that have a gouge that might rip the stylus off the cantilever. They typically clean up and play well after a minute or so on my KAB record cleaner. I am indebted to Vwestlife for pointing out that RCA's expectation of longevity for a stereo record (addressing the fear that stereo lp's wouldn't hold up as well as monophonic lp's) was that it can be played 100 times "with a conventional low-quality record player using a ceramic cartridge, tracking at 4½ grams," and still sound like an unplayed record. Whether stereo or older mono, I'm rarely disappointed in how these old records play.

 

[cafe latte]

That's been my experience, too, since starting to rebuild a modest record collection from the bargain bins at Half Price Books. I do visually inspect them, but I only turn down the ones that have a gouge that might rip the stylus off the cantilever. They typically clean up and play well after a minute or so on my KAB record cleaner. I am indebted to Vwestlife for pointing out that RCA's expectation of longevity for a stereo record (addressing the fear that stereo lp's wouldn't hold up as well as monophonic lp's) was that it can be played 100 times "with a conventional low-quality record player using a ceramic cartridge, tracking at 4½ grams," and still sound like an unplayed record. Whether stereo or older mono, I'm rarely disappointed in how these old records play.

I too saw the Westlife thing, but other studies looking at the grooves with a microscope tell a different story of groove wear.
It is true that records are quite resilient, I have had some of my records since I was a kid and they still play well.
I point above though that David does not agree with is stylus life. There are plently of studies showing 300 hours is the end point for an elliptical tracking at 2g and a Micro ridge is good for 1000 hours which when you think about it really is a lot.
I have seem stylus from customers who think stylus last a lot longer and some of the wear I have seen is scary bad.
Chris

 

[DavidTT]

I too saw the Westlife thing, but other studies looking at the grooves with a microscope tell a different story of groove wear.
It is true that records are quite resilient, I have had some of my records since I was a kid and they still play well.
I point above though that David does not agree with is stylus life. There are plently of studies showing 300 hours is the end point for an elliptical tracking at 2g and a Micro ridge is good for 1000 hours which when you think about it really is a lot.
I have seem stylus from customers who think stylus last a lot longer and some of the wear I have seen is scary bad.
Chris

I'm just going to say it and tear the bandaid off. As far as I can tell, you are just a hobbyist who taught yourself to retip, similar to Joseph who used to be here until he got the boot from the mods.

Unless you are a professional engineer or otherwise formally trained in phono, you are just another hobbyist swimming in the same sea of contradictory, often decades-old info about playing records. For every assertion you make about 300 hours on an elliptical, I can find manufacturer instructions to contradict you. You have no more knowledge or expertise than any of the rest of us as far as I'm concerned. Further, your assertions are repetitive and stated as if you are an expert engineer which I believe you not to be.

You're welcome to your opinions but you are not an expert.

 

[jrtrent]

I too saw the Westlife thing, but other studies looking at the grooves with a microscope tell a different story of groove wear.
It is true that records are quite resilient, I have had some of my records since I was a kid and they still play well.
I point above though that David does not agree with is stylus life. There are plently of studies showing 300 hours is the end point for an elliptical tracking at 2g and a Micro ridge is good for 1000 hours which when you think about it really is a lot.
I have seem stylus from customers who think stylus last a lot longer and some of the wear I have seen is scary bad.
Chris

It is amazing how much difference a little tracking weight can make. AT also gives 300 hours for their .3 X .7 mil ellipticals at 2 grams, but I used my N97xE styli tracking at 1.35 grams for 500 hours, and the dealer's microscope showed what he called "minor" wear. I always went ahead and replaced them at 500 hours, but he said the old one would still be safe for my records as a short-term backup.