The Official "Build" thread for the WYN Phono,Line,Warp,Headphone Pre amp

“We must be spoon fed or we cry foul”

It’s a technical paper. The first of their type in the old audio press junk I read I didn’t understand- I had to learn how to interpret what was being presented.

This is not a press release or magazine article, and although I haven’t seen it yet, based on the above comments it should be fine.

I mean, here we have something performing at a very high level with exceptional performance specifications to back up what you hear. No mumbo-jumbo.

Still owe you some cable, Wyn…
 
I don't think spoonfeeding enters into it. Each and every reader of the paper will have got hold of it because they are actively interested in Wyn's points of view. Most will probably be positively inclined, or at least openly curious, and I can't see any point in not clearing up the undergrowth so it doesn't make the main points of the paper more inaccessible - even more so for those readers who are new to this kind of texts. After all, this is a serious attempt to explain stuff for those who are willing to listen, any others wont be bothered. And why give the more malicious readers unnecessary stuff to attack?
 
The issue of suitable audio metrics is a highly contentious one. Initial ones used simple distortion measures (THD, 2 tone IMD, 3 tone IMD), then more complex ones that used weighted measures of the single tone harmonics (Cheever, Gedlee) were developed.
The most recent ones split the audio range up into overlapping frequency bands that correspond to the ear's physical response. The behavior of the source to be assessed is then evaluated for distortion, both amplitude and temporal, and an overall weighted value is computed. This is a non-trivial exercise and there are no available tools to assess the result beyond my producing a DSP post processing algorithm. I tried to get Virtins Pro to implement it, but no updates as yet.
None of the metrics except "Cheever" attempt to provide any guidance as to how to design an audio element for best sound, and he has a very specific point of view- essentially akin to Pass.
However, in my mind the lessons are clear. Extremely low distortion and minimal dispersion, especially at the higher audio frequencies, are the ways to satisfy the metrics in all cases.
As a somewhat humorous aside.
The metrics suggest strongly that having amps with about 15dB of negative feedback- either local or global (it essentially doesn't matter- all that matters is the effective input distortion of the stage at the operating point and the amount of feedback) is the worst scenario for generating feedback induced high order distortion.
A certain prolific AK poster with large electrostatic loudpeakers and VTL power amps constantly rails against negative feedback, and yet his VTL amps are operated with 15dB of negative feedback applied at least around the output stage.
This somewhat illustrates my point concerning the need to hand hold potential readers.
People will read the whitepaper and reach whatever conclusions they want, extracting whatever they might find interesting and ignoring the rest. All is good. Those that are truly interested will, perhaps, explore a bit further, and achieve additional insight- perhaps more than I have. If they do, and can provide further illumination, then that would be greatly appreciated. However, the constant repetition of audiophile cant without any true insight will just be viewed with a deserved level of derision.
 
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What I'm hoping for would be an increased awareness in these metrics and the implications of them. I the right circumstances those could help loosening up some of the hope-/pointless knots of audio lore, by offering a rational explanation of the old "good measurements - bad sound"-stuff that has led to so much wasted time and energy that instead could have been spent listening to music, or even tweaking one's gear.

One truly great sounding phono stage designed around these principles, together with a serious and accessible documentation could be en eye opener for some listeners. Of course not a majority, since the only audiophile majority in existence is the one consisting of those loathing other audiophiles. But perhaps a minority open for rational discussion. Something like that would be a considerable feat.
 
(Still haven't read the paper) Wyn, your introduction in the preceding post is probably something that could/should be incorporated into the white paper as an opening.

In other words: since you are essentially breaking new ground with regards to just how audio performance is both measured and the resultant data presented, it may be an important point to lay this ground work. Not quite "spoon feeding", but more of a primer, so one knows what they are reading, before they get all glassy eyed as they dive into the deep end with no floaties on. You have, and continue to try and understand and quantify WHY things sound good or bad, and (more importantly perhaps) do your very best to implement them in physical designs. It is such a refreshing change of pace in audio. I was totally fleeced for so many years, based on the "education" I got from audio publications. I have changed my perspective on a lot of things and opened my mind to the possibility of improvements.

I mean, look at the latest solid state amplifier from (insert brand here) and compare it (schematic and performance) to one of the "top performers" from 30 years ago. Once you strip away the cool chassis and awesome PR spiel, not a lot has changed there. Partly because it couldn't, but also because they was no apparent path to further improvement. Everyone was doing it "the way we always did it"- measuring the same things the same way, and other than class D technology, not much has changed. And that's coming from this guy, who knows enough to be dangerous.

You Wyn (and others we are not aware of out there) are really doing a deep dive in trying to understand what is REALLY going on, when we amplify a signal. Understanding the (big) difference between sounding good, and sounding correct. Some recordings were done poorly. Just the way it is. But I want to hear it as it was recorded, and not EVER be thinking "that recording would sound better using the XYZ cartridge rather than the 123 cartridge" or other adjustments or accommodations, some quite major and expensive, I would need to make to "fix" the sound. It sounds the way it sounds. If you don't like the recording, get another recording; don't change your rig to make a recording sound the way you want it to sound. That makes as much sense as changing the springs on your car depending on the roads you will be driving on. Either the roads are good, or they're bad. Avoid the bad roads, and use the springs that work best on the car.
 
(Still haven't read the paper) Wyn, your introduction in the preceding post is probably something that could/should be incorporated into the white paper as an opening.

In other words: since you are essentially breaking new ground with regards to just how audio performance is both measured and the resultant data presented, it may be an important point to lay this ground work. Not quite "spoon feeding", but more of a primer, so one knows what they are reading, before they get all glassy eyed as they dive into the deep end with no floaties on. You have, and continue to try and understand and quantify WHY things sound good or bad, and (more importantly perhaps) do your very best to implement them in physical designs. It is such a refreshing change of pace in audio. I was totally fleeced for so many years, based on the "education" I got from audio publications. I have changed my perspective on a lot of things and opened my mind to the possibility of improvements.

I mean, look at the latest solid state amplifier from (insert brand here) and compare it (schematic and performance) to one of the "top performers" from 30 years ago. Once you strip away the cool chassis and awesome PR spiel, not a lot has changed there. Partly because it couldn't, but also because they was no apparent path to further improvement. Everyone was doing it "the way we always did it"- measuring the same things the same way, and other than class D technology, not much has changed. And that's coming from this guy, who knows enough to be dangerous.

You Wyn (and others we are not aware of out there) are really doing a deep dive in trying to understand what is REALLY going on, when we amplify a signal. Understanding the (big) difference between sounding good, and sounding correct. Some recordings were done poorly. Just the way it is. But I want to hear it as it was recorded, and not EVER be thinking "that recording would sound better using the XYZ cartridge rather than the 123 cartridge" or other adjustments or accommodations, some quite major and expensive, I would need to make to "fix" the sound. It sounds the way it sounds. If you don't like the recording, get another recording; don't change your rig to make a recording sound the way you want it to sound. That makes as much sense as changing the springs on your car depending on the roads you will be driving on. Either the roads are good, or they're bad. Avoid the bad roads, and use the springs that work best on the car.
I appreciate the advice, and I've incorporated a bit more on metrics into the write up.
I'd appreciate it if everyone that is interested would take the time to read and comment, and @j!m, if you are interested, please PM me with your email address and I'll give you access to the document for comment. It's about 25 pages long.
 
I wouldn't mind reading the WP but I wouldn't be able to decipher 99% of it.

Wyns phono stage has an adjustable suspension of sorts. Very flexible. Really looking forward to his next project thanks.
 
We like both of our Pass amps.

We also have 4 Class D amps hanging around that do complicated passages very well. When the music leans toward instrumental ensemble, classical, new age type stuff they usually get the nod.
 
Wyn: I see you added a note on "the positions of Nelson Pass"; if you keep it, you probably should elaborate which ones. He's got a few.

Not a critique of the paper, but more an attempt to sort my own thoughts on the distortion spectrum stuff:

Everything in the mechanical realm we live in has overtone characteristics with an overall decaying applitude of the overtone series; of purely mechanical reasons, you rarely find stuff in the nature with audible overtones above about 5th or so. Some man made materials manipulate the limits of this, and have often been used for creation of specific sounds - mostly as metallophone instruments.

The basis for the "modern" take on distortions is that the ear itself has same resonance mechanisms, producing its own overtone series from the received input – by definition a harmonic distortion. These series of course follow the the same average distribution as every other mechanical overtone series. But the interesting thing is that the auditory system – the ear and the brain – has a built in compensation for this internal distortion, effectively masking it so it won't distort our perception of our surroundings. And since there is no "distorted" sound in nature (only real sounds with their actual overtone series), the same mechanism also works for masking harmonic distortion from reproduced sound - to a limit.

When reproducing sound in audio gear, transducers give the same kind of overtone distribution; the overtones generated in loudspeakers, cartridges and microphones (and transformers?) all follow the same natural distribution. But this distribution becomes upended when passing active electronics, most markedly in the sort Wyn describes as having about 15 dB of feedback. This gives an "unnatural" distribution of the generated overtones, with a higher level of the higher order overtones. Since the ear isn't built to handle this kind of sound spectrum, it sounds wrong, in a way we don't even have an established vocabulary to describe.

One effect of this is that the concept of total harmonic distortion becomes more or less meaningless, since it hides away the spectral distribution of the distortion. For instance, this explains why the objectively high distortion measurements from turntables and loudspeakers are so much easier to accept than the miniscule distortion from many transistor amplifiers. And also why distortion specs say so little of how good or bad audio gadget really sound.

A couple of decades ago these distortion effects were barely measurable, being hidden behind the total harmonic distortion specs, or perhaps "visible" in the deformation of an oscilloscope trace. Indentifying them instead required a spectral analysis.

The various metrics Wyn touches on, the cheevers, gedlees an such, are all methods for creating a simplified "weighted" spec, with a higher correlation between specs and subjective perception. The resulting specs are based on a combination of several different kinds of criteria, including spectral analysis and psycho acoustic theory on how diffent spectral distributions are perceived. This makes the proposed metrics very abstract, and detached from both the actual measurements and any normally relatable sensual experience, which of course doesn't make them attractive to anybody without first reading up on a lot of theory.

As for the next step, how to use this knowledge for actually designing good gear, it all becomes even vaguer. The most common use has been in giving more slack to the acceptable levels of lower overtone distortions, since those don't sound as bad as the higher ones. I think a diluted version of the perspective is most popular amongst the valve, non-feedback crowd, and of course has been popularised by Nelson Pass, cleverly using it for spicing up the sound from some of his gear.

I think Wyn may be the first designer instead combining this perspective with a high feedback design, giving the possibility to not just create a more benign distortion spectrum, but to push down the entire spectrum under an extremely low noise floor.

Of course I'd love to see a power amp design based on the same ideas.
 
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I have been reading, and enjoying(!), the paper, Wyn.

I found a couple typos, but I will forward what I have found once I finish the complete paper.

re the Nelson Pass comment: I might leave his name out of it. Just so it does not appear to be any sort of slander towards him personally. He is held in high regard among many, as you know, and you don't want to create "enemies" out of his camp of followers. Just my take on that bit, as I have no opinion on his work or him as a person either way, as I have not interacted with him.

Still more reading to do, but I find it to be very interesting and certainly educational.
 
I have been reading, and enjoying(!), the paper, Wyn.

I found a couple typos, but I will forward what I have found once I finish the complete paper.

re the Nelson Pass comment: I might leave his name out of it. Just so it does not appear to be any sort of slander towards him personally. He is held in high regard among many, as you know, and you don't want to create "enemies" out of his camp of followers. Just my take on that bit, as I have no opinion on his work or him as a person either way, as I have not interacted with him.

Still more reading to do, but I find it to be very interesting and certainly educational.
Not a slander at all. It's just that he takes one path to the same general outcome, and I take a different one.
However, I will remove the reference seeing as at least one reader interprets it in a negative sense, which is not how it was intended.
 
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Wyn: I see you added a note on "the positions of Nelson Pass"; if you keep it, you probably should elaborate which ones. He's got a few.

Not a critique of the paper, but more an attempt to sort my own thoughts on the distortion spectrum stuff:

Everything in the mechanical realm we live in has overtone characteristics with an overall decaying applitude of the overtone series; of purely mechanical reasons, you rarely find stuff in the nature with audible overtones above about 5th or so. Some man made materials manipulate the limits of this, and have often been used for creation of specific sounds - mostly as metallophone instruments.

The basis for the "modern" take on distortions is that the ear itself has same resonance mechanisms, producing its own overtone series from the received input – by definition a harmonic distortion. These series of course follow the the same average distribution as every other mechanical overtone series. But the interesting thing is that the auditory system – the ear and the brain – has a built in compensation for this internal distortion, effectively masking it so it won't distort our perception of our surroundings. And since there is no "distorted" sound in nature (only real sounds with their actual overtone series), the same mechanism also works for masking harmonic distortion from reproduced sound - to a limit.

When reproducing sound in audio gear, transducers give the same kind of overtone distribution; the overtones generated in loudspeakers, cartridges and microphones (and transformers?) all follow the same natural distribution. But this distribution becomes upended when passing active electronics, most markedly in the sort Wyn describes as having about 15 dB of feedback. This gives an "unnatural" distribution of the generated overtones, with a higher level of the higher order overtones. Since the ear isn't built to handle this kind of sound spectrum, it sounds wrong, in a way we don't even have an established vocabulary to describe.

One effect of this is that the concept of total harmonic distortion becomes more or less meaningless, since it hides away the spectral distribution of the distortion. For instance, this explains why the objectively high distortion measurements from turntables and loudspeakers are so much easier to accept than the miniscule distortion from many transistor amplifiers. And also why distortion specs say so little of how good or bad audio gadget really sound.

A couple of decades ago these distortion effects were barely measurable, being hidden behind the total harmonic distortion specs, or perhaps "visible" in the deformation of an oscilloscope trace. Indentifying them instead required a spectral analysis.

The various metrics Wyn touches on, the cheevers, gedlees an such, are all methods for creating a simplified "weighted" spec, with a higher correlation between specs and subjective perception. The resulting specs are based on a combination of several different kinds of criteria, including spectral analysis and psycho acoustic theory on how diffent spectral distributions are perceived. This makes the proposed metrics very abstract, and detached from both the actual measurements and any normally relatable sensual experience, which of course doesn't make them attractive to anybody without first reading up on a lot of theory.

As for the next step, how to use this knowledge for actually designing good gear, it all becomes even vaguer. The most common use has been in giving more slack to the acceptable levels of lower overtone distortions, since those don't sound as bad as the higher ones. I think a diluted version of the perspective is most popular amongst the valve, non-feedback crowd, and of course has been popularised by Nelson Pass, cleverly using it for spicing up the sound from some of his gear.

I think Wyn may be the first designer instead combining this perspective with a high feedback design, giving the possibility to not just create a more benign distortion spectrum, but to push down the entire spectrum under an extremely low noise floor.

Of course I'd love to see a power amp design based on the same ideas.

Bruno Putzeys espouses the same general idea, and he embodies it extremely successfully in his Class D amp designs.
The trick to getting these high levels of negative feedback is to design an amp that has an extremely high gain bandwidth product (110MHz in Pudzey's Purifi designs) that can be kept stable into all of the possible load conditions. That's a hard thing to do.
An alternative is to use a feedback/feedforward approach, or to limit the kinds of loads that are acceptable.
It also, generally, is easier to have a higher GBWP when amps with low power outputs are designed due to the ability to use faster output devices etc. in essentially a composite amplifier design. The Neurochrome amps do this, as did the WP headphone amp.
Some recent Chinese designs do the same thing, I believe.
THX added a lot of specific design features to the original Quad feedforward patent, and they are used in the Benchmark AHB2s.
Designing something that avoids the patent pitfalls and is essentially load agnostic with comparable output power to the dual mono AHB2 or the Purifi IET400 or the Hypex NC400 is the goal, and that is not a trivial exercise when I intend to drive ML speakers with it.
 
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Not a slander at all. It's just that he takes one path to the same general outcome, and I take a different one.
However, I will remove the reference seeing as at least one reader interprets it in a negative sense, which is not how it was intended.

I know you well enough to know it's not a slander, but I wanted to point out that it could be interpreted that way.
 
Bruno Putzeys espouses the same general idea, and he embodies it extremely successfully in his Class D amp designs.
The trick to getting these high levels of negative feedback is to design an amp that has an extremely high gain bandwidth product (110MHz in Pudzey's Purifi designs) that can be kept stable into all of the possible load conditions. That's a hard thing to do.
An alternative is to use a feedback/feedforward approach, or to limit the kinds of loads that are acceptable.
It also, generally, is easier to have a higher GBWP when amps with low power outputs are designed due to the ability to use faster output devices etc. in essentially a composite amplifier design. The Neurochrome amps do this, as did the WP headphone amp.
Some recent Chinese designs do the same thing, I believe.
THX added a lot of specific design features to the original Quad feedforward patent, and they are used in the Benchmark AHB2s.
Designing something that avoids the patent pitfalls and is essentially load agnostic with comparable output power to the dual mono AHB2 or the Purifi IET400 or the Hypex NC400 is the goal, and that is not a trivial exercise when I intend to drive ML speakers with it.

I very rarely use the term "high end", but I suppose these regions really would be just about the real thing. Which is worrying since I can't see myself as an audiophile, a high-ender even less so. At least me and the wife can expect to keep our cheap canton speakers to save our self identification as plain failed musicians. With a little luck we won't even be able to afford the power amp.
 
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I very rarely use the term "high end", but I suppose these regions really would be just about the real thing. Which is worrying since I can't see myself as an audiophile, a high-ender even less so. At least me and the wife can expect to keep our cheap canton speakers to save our self identification as plain failed musicians. With a little luck we won't even be able to afford the power amp.

That made me actually LOL :D

Athanasios
 
I very rarely use the term "high end", but I suppose these regions really would be just about the real thing. Which is worrying since I can't see myself as an audiophile, a high-ender even less so. At least me and the wife can expect to keep our cheap canton speakers to save our self identification as plain failed musicians. With a little luck we won't even be able to afford the power amp.
Actually, in my opinion these are all (relatively speaking) affordable "high end". They lack the cachet, but at least for the AHB2 they do have the performance. I'm less convinced about the class D amps when driving certain classes of speaker.
 
Using the correct components wisely will cost less than throwing expensive components at a crappy design...

The details on the capacitor choices in the paper illustrate this well.
 
I intend to freeze the white paper as of the end of this week. Any interested parties who want to add commentary/corrections have until then.
 
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