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The one watt lie….

Holy hell there is a lot to unpack here, until you realize that 3/4 of the posts are tangents.

Maybe I have too much absorption behind my couch, but sometimes/often I want to rock out with the Radio Shack SPL meter hovering at 93-95 dB on the "slow" and "C" settings, maybe hitting 99dB peaks on "fast". At these SPL, I am just under clipping with any of several 100-150 wpc amps into supposedly 98dB sensitive speakers (which I'd personally derate to 91-92dB based on living with 89dB speakers that actually measured up to their claims).

As much as I really, really, really want to build an Amp Camp Amp, I fear this is never going to hit similar SPLs. So I'm currently going the opposite way into higher power amps. It's a journey.

I heard startling dynamics last night playing a variety of dynamic and aggressive music, all with the subwoofer amp turned off and running the mains full range. They always run full range.
I damn near jumped when I heard the first drum thwacks to "Children of the Sun" (vinyl) and pretty much everything on "Kill 'em All" (CD). The funniest thing is that I then played "Longtime/Foreplay" (vinyl) for the first in a long time, and I just read a post about that song(s) moments ago.
 
Threads as these are predictable.

Tastes Great!

Less Filling!

After owning 3-400 amplifiers, I've simply found that there are no hard and fast rules allowing one to predict how a given design may sound with a given pair of speakers. No specification draws such a correlation.

As it's not possible to audition them all in a setting at which bias can be eliminated, nor over sufficient time to expose weaknesses originally interpreted as strengths, one is left to their opinion.
 
GChief said:
And I just listened to some Korn on 6wpc at around 96 db and nothing is “missing” :rockon:
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Ya know, I run lots of stuff from ~10wpc on 85dB up to roughly 9kW on 99 or 100dB, and stuff between, and have tried mix and match with a lot of it. It's all enjoyable in its own right but clearly the capabilities are different.

The min disturbs the SO in the next room, the max puts ripples in a cup of beer at 50 paces. :)
 
6.5CM said:
I still enjoy testing with the 1812 overture produced by Telarc. I challenge a good 3 watt amp to tackle that, and then compare it to a stout 50 watt amp on say a Klipsch Cornwall at 84 db average SPL. Tell me what happens when the canons fire in the end. That Decware may just crap out lol
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I don't know, not exactly the same, but my friend has La Scalas and a 2 watt Decware, they get loud. :yikes:

On a similar note, I had 91 dB speakers with dual 10s and a 15 watt parallel single ended amplifier, which according to an SPL calculator should be 3 dBs short of your example and they absolutely made those cannons go kaboom. Believe it or not, better than some 100 watt ss amps on hand at the time.
 
I guess this is another tangent, but when I last had my hearing tested the audiologist had a test to find the volume I found painful - and it was at about 95 dbs (they do that because it gives them an idea of how much room they have to work with it you can't hear a frequency until 60 dbs, and it is painful at 95 dbs).

With 86 db/watt, min 6 ohms speakers, I do 90% of my listening at less than 80 dbs in a small room with my speakers 8 feet away, so I'm pretty sure I am using less than one watt most times.

I kind of got a kick out of this video illustrating how loud 87 dbs is. He is using a volt meter, but you get the gist of it - he quickly can't shout over the volume of the music.
 
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62caddy said:
Try one of these someday. :)

@damacman

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I agree that the MC225 is a sweet-sounding amp. I think that whether an MC225 - or pair of MC30s – or an MC240 - sounds better depends on synergy with the speakers, and which inevitable colorations an audiophile prefers.
 
For the classical music I love, I prefer modern performances/recordings (i.e., performances recorded in the last dozen years or so) that were captured and mastered in multi-channel hi-res digital (e.g., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered on a disc featuring DTS-HD MA 5.1 (e.g., Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray), or an SACD disc that features multi-channel DSD.

Modern hi-res recordings can reproduce uncompressed sound for large-scale classical music that has significant dynamic range.

Here’s my TV room System:

Main front left & right speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-37F. Center: Klipsch RC-64III. Single rear: Klipsch RP-502S. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. The source is an Oppo UDP-205 for playing Blu-ray and SACD, and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings. I generally use vintage tube amps for music: Scott 399, Fisher X-1000, Scott 299C, McIntosh MX110Z / McIntosh MC240 or McIntosh MC225. I use solid-state amps for movies (and summertime): NAD C375BEE, and an NAD D 3045. A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switches connect the Oppo to the amp. HDTV is connected via TOSLINK to the UDP-205 to play audio from broadcast TV via the hi-fi. Chromecast connected to the HDMI input of my UDP-205 for streaming video. Chromecast Audio is connected via analog audio to the NAD C375BEE for internet radio.​

I used to have a Pioneer SX-1980 in this TV room system. Neither the SX-1980 (270wpc) nor my NAD C375BEE (150wpc) sounds better than any of my tube amps in this system - even for modern hi-res recordings of large-scale classical music that have tremendous dynamic range.

Here’s my living room system:

Stereo speakers are Snell Type CV. Center: Klipsch RC-64III. Single rear: RP-502S. Subwoofer: Klipsch P-312W. The source components are Oppo BDP-105 for playing Blu-ray, SACDs, and CDs (and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings), and Dual 1249 with Stanton 681EE equipped with a new Shibata stylus. Amps include a pair of McIntosh MC30s, Scott 296, McIntosh MX110Z / McIntosh MC275, a pair of Pilot HF-56 mono receivers, an NAD pre-amp and Acurus A250 power-amp for movies, and a McIntosh 2155 driving JBL L830s in the kitchen / dining room. A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a F/F RCA cables enable me to connect an amp to the Oppo. Chromecast Audio is connected via analog audio to the NAD pre-amp for internet radio.​

Neither my Acurus A250 (250wpc) nor my McIntosh 2155 (150wpc) sounds better than the tube amps in this living room system - even for modern hi-res recordings of large-scale classical music that have tremendous dynamic range.

Here’s my basement system:

Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II. A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7. Subwoofers: SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW. Source: Oppo UDP-205 for playing Blu-ray and SACDs, and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings. Amps: Scott 272, Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO, Scott 222C, Fisher KX-200, Scott 296, Pilot SA-260, Scott LK150, Altec 353A, Kenwood KR-9050. (This system also has a Schiit Loki tone-control. I can connect the power amps direct to the Oppo, or insert the Loki.) A patch panel allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and F/F RCA cables enable me to connect an amp to the Oppo, and a power amp to the Loki if I choose to do so. Chromecast Audio is connected via TOSLINK to the UDP-205 for internet radio.​

I used to have a Marantz 2325 in this basement system. Neither my Kenwood KR-9050 (200wpc) nor the Marantz 2325 (125wpc) sounds better than any of my push/pull tube amps in this system - even for modern hi-res recordings of large-scale classical music that have tremendous dynamic range. (My 8 wpc SEP amp comes up short for large-scale orchestral music, but sounds great for small-scale folk music and jazz.)

Bottom line: Beyond what is needed to reproduce uncompressed concert-hall level sound levels for particular speakers in a particular room for a particular recording, more wpc does not equate to better sound quality - IME.

P.S. Note that my systems have powered subwoofers that off-load the power-hungry deep bass from the main stereo amp and speakers.
 
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I hope to one day own the Yamamoto 45. A great example of single ended bliss in which the quality of those 2 watts is the driving force towards sound perfection. It's handcrafted and all point-to-point wiring is done with surgical precision.

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I'll never forget hearing Jim Dowdy's GM-70 at Hornfest. This three chassis monster weighs in at 240 lbs. Two of the three chassis are devoted to the power supply. It's a direct heated triode producing a few flea watts but I recall one Hornfest attendee calling it the "Voice of God". This Youtube audio sounds terrible but this beast brought tears to our eyes driving the HS Horns. Jim will custom build one for around 30K. He sells them all over the world and I understand several were sold to oil sheiks.

 
6.5CM said:
thats really a limited take on the dynamic between an amp, a speaker and music.

if youre amplifying a flat 1khz signal, you’d be right. If the music playing requires 3/4 watts to play strings at a moderate level; and the track ends in a crescendo with the entire orchestra to include some tympani drums and a gong, a 1 watt amp will compress in an attempt to keep up.
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Where are you coming up with the estimate of "3/4 watt for a moderate level"?

You do realize with speakers of extremely high sensitivity, the average signal is typically closer to 0.001 (one thousandth) of a watt or even less. With a pair of 103 dB speakers, I once got through an entire opera without ever exceeding 0.5 watts on peaks and it was plenty loud. Most of the time the amplifier hovered around 0.005 - 0.05 watts.

1 watt input with a 110 dB speaker produces the equivalent SPL as a 1,000 watt input with an 80 dB speaker.
 
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