The parts of my new Altecs

[spartanmanor]

I picked these up on Friday. Not to pretty but working. Today I tore one apart to reveal what was original and what was trash.

The components are:

416-8C woofers
806-A
H-811 B Horns
crossovers marked n-800f

Valencia Cabinets

Where should I start?

I will need to rebuild the fronts of the cabinets as they were hacked pretty bad. This should be pretty easy. I plan on moving the ports back to there original place by the horn. Maybe going with a nice veneered ply to pretty them up so no grills are needed.

As I am a total noob on Altecs at this point I can only make guesses as to what once was. It looks as if the woofers are not original as they are 8ohm and the tweeters are 16. What should I look for as a replacement for the original? Also the crossovers look iffy. Any kits out there?




* see finished project here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=132186&page=8

 

[judgeschreber]

If you want to go all-out, I'd personally replace the 806's with 802-8g (impedance match, and better HF extension), and then build a pair of M19 crossovers. Jeff Markwart's got the schematics on his web-page. That way you'll have an M19 clone in a more appropriately-sized cabinet (and better-looking, too, if you do the necessary cabinet work). The M19 cabs were a bit oversized for optimum bass response.

Cheaper driver replacements can be had with BMS drivers. These are reputed to work extremely well with the 811 horn and M19 crossover--even better than the 802-8g, according to some. There may be a little bit of an efficiency mis-match, but this can be solved.

 

[avguytx]

Me personally? I would start with the cabinetry and get that part done. When I had my Valencias, you could remove the entire woofer baffle easily so I would start with making one of those first and then work on the upper horn section of the baffle to, again, replicate the original.

That's about all I can offer since I don't know the aspects of the drivers you have versus the "stock" drivers. I just know which ones the website says the Valencia's have. Others will chime in for sure.

Good luck and I'll be watching your progress along with working on my Milano's!

 

[spartanmanor]

Me personally? I would start with the cabinetry and get that part done. When I had my Valencias, you could remove the entire woofer baffle easily so I would start with making one of those first and then work on the upper horn section of the baffle to, again, replicate the original.

That's about all I can offer since I don't know the aspects of the drivers you have versus the "stock" drivers. I just know which ones the website says the Valencia's have. Others will chime in for sure.

Good luck and I'll be watching your progress along with working on my Milano's!

I have the front of one off already. The previous owner loved his caulk. I can now use that as a template for new fronts. An easy afternoon project for the reconstruction. This alone will at least make them look lightyears better. :thmbsp: Your Milano's were the insperation for me to move forward on these.

 

[bowtie427ss]

So many things changed while in production at Altec that it's hard to determine some things for sure such as the original woofer impedence.

It's also been pointed out in the past that the accuracy of some of the literature is questionable at best.

The 1971 home catalog suggests that the woofer is 8 ohm and the horn is 16 ohm. I'm quite sure that an early pair of valencia's i had several years ago had 16 ohm components both top and bottom, they came from the original owner with little question that the components were original.

Regardless, the 416-8C's are not original to those cabinets, they're simply not vintage correct as the 416-8C was introduced near the end of the model 19's production.

If you want to go all-out, I'd personally replace the 806's with 802-8g (impedance match, and better HF extension)

Plus 3db of added sensitivity....................... i agree with this BUT........................ there isn't room for an 802 body without modifying the back of the cabinet. 802 is about a half inch deeper than 806 and 806 is usually tight against the back in those cabs.

 

[Zilch]

I plan on moving the ports back to there original place by the horn.

I would advise staying with the 846B design approach with the round ports on the baffle for three reasons:

1) That's what Altec did.

2) In the earlier 846A design, the horn is not well secured at the sides. Close in the area in a secure manner and attach the horn all around to minimize resonances, which are a problem with the 811B aluminum horn.

3) The tuning of the "Sides of the horn" porting is vague and indeterminate. For your project to succeed, you need to be able to optimize the tuning for the woofer in that cabinet in a predictable manner. That means round ports that can be adjusted merely by altering their length. I earlier provided a preliminary calculation of how that woofer might be tuned with 3" or 4" diameter ports. All you need is the internal volume measurement to know what to build.

I was unaware of the depth of the compression driver issue when upgrading to 802-8G, which could be solved by making a clearance cutout in the rear baffle with an external cover, as Altec did in several versions of the same cabinet, actually. I certainly would not give that much weight as an argument in favor of keeping the 806A drivers. Sell those and the companion 16-Ohm N-800F crossovers while there are still people willing to give actual money for them. They'll likely yield enough to cover the cost of new BMS drivers and better DIY crossovers to work with your 8-Ohm woofers.

 

[bowtie427ss]

Zilch, i believe there is already the cutout/cover arrangement there, but an 802 requires "building out" of that cover which creates a kind of gross protruberance.................... the OP has expressed a desire to keep these as original as possible.

I think most all of the cabinets of this era were built by shops elsewhere(non Altec), it would seem from some of the dimensions and fitments of the horns that there was little communication between any "design teams" and the guys that actually built the cabinets, i for one have never understood the concept of the covered holes behind the drivers, they just scream "afterthought" to me................................... just my .02 of course

 

[Brad Muller]

Too bad you're not closer to the west coast. I know where a pair of empty 846b Valancia's could be had rather cheap.:yes: Brad

 

[dnewma04]

806 compression drivers with replacement Radian diaphragms are actually very nice drivers, but it wouldn't cost too much more to go to 4550s and you will probably save a few bucks in the process by selling the Altecs.

 

[Zilch]

I think most all of the cabinets of this era were built by shops elsewhere(non Altec), it would seem from some of the dimensions and fitments of the horns that there was little communication between any "design teams" and the guys that actually built the cabinets, i for one have never understood the concept of the covered holes behind the drivers, they just scream "afterthought" to me................................... just my .02 of course

Here's the 846A drawing showing the cutout. I thought I understood the cutout thing, but obviously not. Maybe early 802s would fit there?

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/plans/1968-enclosure/page10.jpg

 

[Zilch]

Too bad you're not closer to the west coast. I know where a pair of empty 846b Valancia's could be had rather cheap.:yes: Brad

I've sent you a PM.

I have a plan.... :

806 compression drivers with replacement Radian diaphragms are actually very nice drivers, but it wouldn't cost too much more to go to 4550s and you will probably save a few bucks in the process by selling the Altecs.

I measured the Radian in an 804 motor in comparision to the full gamut of others here, including Altec "Lite":

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=171640#post171640

Read through the end of that page for the coup de grâce. :

I was able to make the Radian play relatively nicely on that motor, but it took 16 dB of compensation to accomplish it, not an option without biamping:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=156257#post156257

I'm not above measuring again on 806 motors, if somebody wants to send me a pair with Radian diaphragms for that. I have no more Altec compression drivers here, but do still have 811B and 511A horns.

[Not for very much longer, tho.... ]

 

[RaymondLeggs]

Paint Those cabinets!

 

[spartanmanor]

Paint Those cabinets!

The cabinets are in good shape the fronts are going.

 

[dread31]

Looks like you have a big job ahead of you.
I hope everything works out well. I love
those big Altecs with the furnuture grade
cabinetry.
I have A7's but they're the industrial cabinets.
One day I'll dress them up.

Dave

 

[bowtie427ss]

Here's the 846A drawing showing the cutout. I thought I understood the cutout thing, but obviously not. Maybe early 802s would fit there?

I suppose it was intended for access to the diaphragm for service/replacement, but a box opening covered with masonite?

I have an 802-8G and an older 802-8D here on my desk, the older non tangerine 802-8D is a little shorter than the 8G, maybe an 1/8 inch or so. If memory serves the 806 is 3/8 of an inch shorter than old style 802, so the whole depth issue revolves around a 1/2 inch or less. As negligible as that seems, the cover on many of those 806's in valencia's and the sister models actually extends into that 6 inch circular cutout on the rear panel.

 

[gonzomeep]

The 802D and the 806A are identical IIRC, are they not?. Altec AlNiCo motors are not too much different wrt models, it is in the diaphragm type that they differ right? 802D/806A/807A/808A. Maybe the 804 is smaller/shorter? Just like a new style 808-8B and an 802-8G, of which the 808-8B uses the Symbiotic 'phragm, and has a slightly shorter motor body, both use the Tangerine phase plug. Is this correct?

 

[bowtie427ss]

The 802D and the 806A are identical IIRC

804, 806, and 807 are the shorties, 802 and 808 are a little longer to accomodate a bigger alnico slug, newer tangerine 802 and 808 bodies are a bit longer and have a slight taper with the smaller end being the horn end.

802-8G and 808-8B bodies are identical and interchangeable, where they differ is in the phragm and presence/absence of a loading cap or felt damping on the inner cover.

Take an 808-8B discard the loading cap, put a piece of felt boot liner in the cover, install a GPA 34647 diaphragm(you'll need shorter screws) and you have an 802-8G.

 

[Tom Brennan]

I replaced the 806s in my Heath AS-21s with new GPA 902-16s. These fit anywhere an 806 fit and have performence equal to the 802-Gs.

Of course old Altec 902s are the same driver as the GPA and should work as well. IMO the GPAs are the preferred drivers when putting new drivers in old Altecs; offers better highs than older Altec drivers but maintains the magical Altec "voice".

 

[gonzomeep]

804, 806, and 807 are the shorties, 802 and 808 are a little longer to accomodate a bigger alnico slug, newer tangerine 802 and 808 bodies are a bit longer and have a slight taper with the smaller end being the horn end.

802-8G and 808-8B bodies are identical and interchangeable, where they differ is in the phragm and presence/absence of a loading cap or felt damping on the inner cover.

Take an 808-8B discard the loading cap, put a piece of felt boot liner in the cover, install a GPA 34647 diaphragm(you'll need shorter screws) and you have an 802-8G.

Thanks Bud, I'm a little rusty with my Altec model # knowledge. You'd think after owning so many, I'd have it down pat. Tom B. , is it just me, or do the older Altecs still have magic? I really enjoyed my M19's (802-8G). I actually thought I was going to have to augment them with a JBL ring radiator, but the top end was so airy and sweet, I just left them be.

 

[spartanmanor]

So is there a huge difference having the ports by the horns or cut in the cabinets next to the woofers? Also is there any kind of construction inside the cabinets in the ports by the tweeters like the channels by the woofer ports.