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The Sad Fate of Direct Drive Turntables...

re: "He could take a sample chip to China"

LoL - would be true if it could be disassembled to reverse engineer it. can't actually do that in a chip of that design (PS - this is my own take on it, my day job is as a firmware developer for a semiconductor company, so I don't reverse engineer chips but I also don't see how it could be done. re-engineer knowing what it's supposed to do, but not reverse engineer, so the result wouldn't be functionally identical more likely than not.

Boy, that's the truth. As a result, there are all sorts of crappy chips out there that are hardly what they are supposed to be. Anyone who thinks chips are chips and can be obtained anywhere is in for a BIG dissapointment!
There are out and out fakes, as well as "versions" that are anything but "functionally identical":nono:

Russellc
 
Where there is a will, and a Chinese factory, there is a way.

I suppose it is fitting that there is a doomsday device within these wonderful turntables, as I can't believe there are many of us that would ever be happy with just the same one turntable up to the day we each drop dead. I am always looking to either upgrade or make a mistake purchase.

However, I haven't been able to cast off my Nivico or BIC turntables, and they are belt drive, so I guess I am safe.
 
If i may borrow a sentiment:

Understand that we will not always have the opportunity to use these old DD tables. Everything that is born will die, everything that is put together will come apart, and everything that appears will disappear. Their time is limited; it is certain that these electronics will come to an end, but we do not know when. It is of the greatest value to recognize the opportunity that we have now and desire to take advantage of it.

:yes:
 
Why would you toss the entire TT for a motor failure? Great plinth, platter, arm? Somebody with more time than sense could come up with someway to make the record rotate.
 
Why would you toss the entire TT for a motor failure? Great plinth, platter, arm? Somebody with more time than sense could come up with someway to make the record rotate.

yes. exactly. and it doesn't require the original electronics. it's a turntable... not rocket science. however I suspect that any automatic operations would be killed without such a control chip as well, not the end of the world for most of us.
 
Why would you toss the entire TT for a motor failure? Great plinth, platter, arm? Somebody with more time than sense could come up with someway to make the record rotate.

Absolutely

There was a thread on Vinyl engine where Audiorigami made a Belt Drive motor from a Floppy drive motor unfortunately the link has gone from his website but the idea was sound & I would think adaptable in some fashion to Direct drive.
 
All I know is that my Realistic LAB-400 DD TT has never given me a seconds trouble. All I've ever had to replace was the cart.
 
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Simple solution -- chips have no place in a turntable that's "built for the ages". AC synchronous motor (or a washing machine motor) and belt or rim (idler) drive gets the job done.

There is such a thing as too much technology...

:-)

The day that any standard production washing machine motor --no matter how much you tweak it-- can remotely approach the rotational speed stability of those top-end Japanese DD TTs, I'll drink a quart of motor oil! [Um, speaking figurately, not literally! :D]

No unobtanium chips in my Thorens TD160S...

Great post Arkay

Thanks. It was a fairly brief conversation, since I had to cut it short to go to work, but it gave me a lot of food for thought. Of course, I've known this all along, in theory. I know that ANYTHING with chips and digital technology in it, has a ticking-down time clock in it, and WILL "die", because of the economics of chip technology over time.

But I somehow think of DD TTs as things that can be kept going for a long, long time. Generally, EXCEPT for the chip problems, they could outlast even many belt drive TTs, as their bearings are usually subject to much less friction and wear. Many never need lubrication, or only the tiniest drop every ten years or so. Other components, like resistors or capacitors, aren't going to become unobtanium within the foreseeable future. BUT I hadn't given much thought to the fact that there are also TWO IC chips in each of these, and those eventually (of course) will fail, and that some of them are already approaching the time when they quit, and spares/replacements may be soon or already unavailable.

Since these TTs were produced in relatively few numbers and usually sold ONLY in Japan, and some of them were discontinued --and the companies got out of hi-fi completely-- soon after they were made, because CDs, LDs and home theater became the "big thing", the number of chips made was (therefore) not huge.

Understand that we will not always have the opportunity to use these old DD tables. Everything that is born will die, everything that is put together will come apart, and everything that appears will disappear. Their time is limited; it is certain that these electronics will come to an end, but we do not know when. It is of the greatest value to recognize the opportunity that we have now and desire to take advantage of it.

:yes:

OF course, this is wisdom that applies to all things.
Buddhism teaches this.
Tao encompasses this.
But it doesn't mean that we cannot hope that our favorite DD turntables last a bit longer, even if in a spiritual sense this might be construed as a form of "weakness" or "room for further growth".

Why would you toss the entire TT for a motor failure? Great plinth, platter, arm? Somebody with more time than sense could come up with someway to make the record rotate.


Of course, if the plinth is good, one would retain it. Ditto for the arm. But the motor? Don't forget that in a DD TT, the platter IS, essentially, the rotor of the motor. You wouldn't want to put a belt-drive on it and drive the motor, so to speak. Of course, some (many good) DD platters use a sub-platter rotor to which the outer LP platter is fitted. In this case, you could recycle the outer platter. Rest assured that Tommy DID recycle anything worth recycling from those TTs, such as tonearms. But otherwise, they'd probably only be useful as parts donors for other same (or close) model TTs.
 
Absolutely

There was a thread on Vinyl engine where Audiorigami made a Belt Drive motor from a Floppy drive motor unfortunately the link has gone from his website but the idea was sound & I would think adaptable in some fashion to Direct drive.

I wonder if you (and some others in this thread) are confusing "direct drive" with "idler-wheel drive" or "rim drive". COMPLETELY DIFFERENT concepts, mutually incompatible. It is easy to switch between belt drive and idler-drive systems, because they both use a separate and simple platter that turns on a bearing. Anything that can make that platter spin is fine for driving it. A DD is different, because the platter is actually the rotor of the motor itself. If you spin one, the feeling is very different, and usually it will not spin for long (unless it has an unusually heavy platter with a lot of "flywheel effect", like the GT-2000). That is because you are turning parts of the motor through magnetic fields, and without the assistance of the circuitry that makes it "cogless", as well. It makes no sense to put a belt or idler drive on that kind of TT! :no:
 
I wonder if you (and some others in this thread) are confusing "direct drive" with "idler-wheel drive" or "rim drive". COMPLETELY DIFFERENT concepts, mutually incompatible. It is easy to switch between belt drive and idler-drive systems, because they both use a separate and simple platter that turns on a bearing. Anything that can make that platter spin is fine for driving it. A DD is different, because the platter is actually the rotor of the motor itself. If you spin one, the feeling is very different, and usually it will not spin for long (unless it has an unusually heavy platter with a lot of "flywheel effect", like the GT-2000). That is because you are turning parts of the motor through magnetic fields, and without the assistance of the circuitry that makes it "cogless", as well. It makes no sense to put a belt or idler drive on that kind of TT! :no:

I know I mis-said that earlier in the thread, of course DD is when the motor's spindle is the turntable platter's spindle, one and the same.

sorry if I misled people earlier
 
I wonder if you (and some others in this thread) are confusing "direct drive" with "idler-wheel drive" or "rim drive". COMPLETELY DIFFERENT concepts, mutually incompatible. It is easy to switch between belt drive and idler-drive systems, because they both use a separate and simple platter that turns on a bearing. Anything that can make that platter spin is fine for driving it. A DD is different, because the platter is actually the rotor of the motor itself. If you spin one, the feeling is very different, and usually it will not spin for long (unless it has an unusually heavy platter with a lot of "flywheel effect", like the GT-2000). That is because you are turning parts of the motor through magnetic fields, and without the assistance of the circuitry that makes it "cogless", as well. It makes no sense to put a belt or idler drive on that kind of TT! :no:

however the magnets could be removed from the motor and voila, free spinning platter (although maybe not ideal), and then you could drive it some other way in theory, although I doubt the space/setup inside would really permit it for most DD tables.
 
G'day all, some interesting thoughts here. As a bit of an electronics enthusiast myself, I have personally seen what happens when specialised and critical electronics and hard to obtain components fail. Not good.

Given enough knowledge and expertise there are often ways 'around' problems caused by the failure of a critical electronic component and sometimes the overall performance can actually be improved as a result of albeit (necessarily) increased circuit complexity. I myself and Ham Radio friends of mine have actually done this. In Ham Radio a very knowledgeable friend of mine practically rebuilt a certain HF transceiver when it failed and the manufacturer was unwilling to assist with repairs.

It was a very complex repair job but my friend was more than equal to the task and actually did a superb job and actually vastly improved the circuit as a result. So such things 'can' be done but not easily, sadly. I tend to prefer well engineered belt drive turntables for reliability reasons as well as inherently good performance. I personally find that rather endearing. Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
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Makes me thankful I don't have to deal with chips. I'm all for the KISS technique (keeping it simple). :yes:
 
I wonder if you (and some others in this thread) are confusing "direct drive" with "idler-wheel drive" or "rim drive". COMPLETELY DIFFERENT concepts, mutually incompatible. It is easy to switch between belt drive and idler-drive systems, because they both use a separate and simple platter that turns on a bearing. Anything that can make that platter spin is fine for driving it. A DD is different, because the platter is actually the rotor of the motor itself. If you spin one, the feeling is very different, and usually it will not spin for long (unless it has an unusually heavy platter with a lot of "flywheel effect", like the GT-2000). That is because you are turning parts of the motor through magnetic fields, and without the assistance of the circuitry that makes it "cogless", as well. It makes no sense to put a belt or idler drive on that kind of TT! :no:

Yup totally confused :D I stand corrected yet again & will be in the future have no doubt about it. :D
 
He's Right!

Uhh, let me guess. This purveyor of doom sells new turntables, right? And probably not any of that wimpy DD stuff aimed at the great unwashed. I'm guessing (wait for it) he really likes and sells esoteric belt drive units!

He's absolutely right, though. It's time for all you DD owners to get out while you can. Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll save you from the torment of chip failure by buying your SP-10 Mk II or SP-15. Heck I might even stoop to accepting an SL-1200. Since the chips on these machines are teetering on total destruction and they'll not be good for anything but doorstops thereafter, I can only offer you $50-$75, maybe $100 if in pristine shape.

I can only be so generous so you better act fast.
 
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I suppose everything will eventually break. Well, I will be enjoying some of my more complex decks for whatever live is left in them.

I'm more than happy with my Revox TTs. Quartz lock and digital readout, all by use of "off-the-shelf" chips, and all seated in sockets. Aint' that nice?
 
So what if a turntable breaks...

...you can always buy another!

I don't know about your gear, but my old school tables are the least expensive part of my system. Unless you're in the realm of the Yamaha GT-2000, or the ultra high end Victor units discussed earlier, decent vintage DD tables are relatively inexpensive, especially compared with new tables.
 
Direct Drive

I have one albeit inexpensive Pioneer PL-7 and I love it for many reasons. I hope it lasts me some time. Perhaps I too will get lucky and find something else that will intrgue me and hold up over time.

I feel for anyone who loses a classic deck due to
unobtainium. Keep your DD classic clean and dry and remember those power supply caps do get tired. Keep the deck off the top of a receiver keep it cool.

Yes use it and always be looking for the next great table in case something happens. Even keeping a spare is no guarantee they can go bad just sitting there.

Great post Arkay! It's surely a tough situation to plan for.
 
"He explained that this was increasingly true for several of the best models of direct drive TTs, so he been forced to stop dealing in, for example, the TOTL Victor (JVC) TT-801 and TT-101 models. He (Tommy) had personally had a 101 as his main player at home for over ten years, and then bought a beat-up "spare" for parts, but in the end had to throw both of them out, when the pitch/speed control ICs went bad. [He still has one in his shop, with three tonearms I drooled over, pictured here: http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng...ls.jsp?gid=907 ]"

He's an idiot. Is it OK to say that? I refuse to believe that in Hong Kong of all places the dumpster is where he would leave them.
 
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