The Steve Wilson Yes Remasters....

[patient_ot]

What good will that do? It will not change how the records sound. I really don't do digital.

No it won't. I was merely suggesting an alternative way to listen to, and possibly enjoy the remixes. A trial subscription to Tidal is free, so it really costs you nothing. I held off from the digital streaming thing for some time before going for it. Still only makes up a small portion of my listening time, but I find it useful for discovering new and new to me music, deciding whether reissues are worth buying, and so on.

 

[WaynerN]

That's disappointing to hear. I love his DVD-A surround remix of "The Yes Album" and it's one of my go-to's in the car. His work on Crimson's Discipline is also very good. Something must have gone wrong with the vinyl mastering process (if there was one at all).

jblnut

The wax was cut at Bernie Grundman Mastering by Bellman. It's not like its the first time the Grundman Studios cut some wax. I suspect the music was "F'd" up before they got it, and they simply tried to turn the sow's ear into a silk purse. I have many records that were recorded and mastered in the digital domain. They are awesome sounding, and I have no dog in the fight between analog and digital, as there are perfectly awesome (and horrible) examples of this.

Needless to say, I am hugely disappointed with the results, and I can't believe that the producers and production people didn't throw up a red flag. They all must have known it was bad too, just let the consumer (most devoted Yes fans) get stuck....once again.

 

[WaynerN]

No it won't. I was merely suggesting an alternative way to listen to, and possibly enjoy the remixes. A trial subscription to Tidal is free, so it really costs you nothing. I held off from the digital streaming thing for some time before going for it. Still only makes up a small portion of my listening time, but I find it useful for discovering new and new to me music, deciding whether reissues are worth buying, and so on.

I DON'T DO DIGITAL!!~!~!~!

 

[4-2-7]

All vinyl cut nowdays is brought into the digital domain so that the cutting lathe computer can adjust track spacing.

That's incorrect, the computer in the lathe is for timing and speed, the music doesn't go though any computer in a lathe. The lathe computer controls the lathes actions only.

So that comment was about as useless as the rest of this thread. It lacks any information of catalog #, Matrix # Country of Origen, Pressing Plants, mastering lab.

Then the all important equipment used in your self proclaimed review, Table, Cartridge, Loading, Phono stage will all have an effect on how a record sounds. I can load a cartridge and make a record sound flat or distorted. In turn I can play most my records and they all sound great at my settings. I can then put one record on that sounds distorted but if I switch loading and gain that particular title can sound great.

Just because a record sounds bad on your system , doesn't mean it will on others. Before the standardized RIAA EQ people needed to change the EQ for a specific record to match how the record was cut and EQed.

 

[jblnut]

But it's not f'ed up - the DVD-A is very well produced. I'd have to hear the vinyl to tell you what the difference is but Mr Wilson is no hack and has a fine ear. That much I know for certain now as I own several of his own CD's as well as a few of his DVD-A surround remixes of other artists.

Trash the box set if you will, but Mr Wilson doesn't deserve the blame here.

jblnut

 

[4-2-7]

BTW, with a new record one should play it a few times before casting judgement. Polishing and breaking in the groove will have the SQ get better after a few plays.

But it's not f'ed up - the DVD-A is very well produced. I'd have to hear the vinyl to tell you what the difference is but Mr Wilson is no hack and has a fine ear. That much I know for certain now as I own several of his own CD's as well as a few of his DVD-A surround remixes of other artists.

Trash the box set if you will, but Mr Wilson doesn't deserve the blame here.

jblnut

I personally feel it's how an individuals vinyl front end plays the record that will have a big effect on SQ. I have bought high end records and had them sound bad compared to most of my records. But if I change loading and or gain or both the record sounds fine.

 

[patient_ot]

I DON'T DO DIGITAL!!~!~!~!

WE GET IT!!~!~!~!

Jeeeeeeeeez did you forget to take your medicine today?

 

[patient_ot]

But it's not f'ed up - the DVD-A is very well produced. I'd have to hear the vinyl to tell you what the difference is but Mr Wilson is no hack and has a fine ear. That much I know for certain now as I own several of his own CD's as well as a few of his DVD-A surround remixes of other artists.

Trash the box set if you will, but Mr Wilson doesn't deserve the blame here.

jblnut

I have to wonder if problems happen when his surround mixes are folded down to stereo and then that gets cut into a lacquer? I do not know if these were dedicated stereo mixes or just 5.1 fold downs. I don't have a 5.1 system so I only listen to these and things like the TFF SW remixes in stereo. I'm sure I'm missing something by not experiencing the 5.1 in full but on digital stereo these remixes sound pretty good to me - and yeah I have old Yes vinyl and CDs with the original mixes.

 

[bobins08]

All vinyl cut nowdays is brought into the digital domain so that the cutting lathe computer can adjust groove spacings. I don't need to download anything to compare it to as I have other LPs here to compare it to. I have original LPs I bought when I was a kid, I have the Friday Music stuff, and the Analog Productions version of Fragile. I also have Talk from Japan.

I have all the original releases from back when I was a kid too. All of them have a lot of miles and wear and tear. The Yes album still sounds good (lively) as does Fragile. Both are Broadway Atlantic early pressings. My copies of Close to the Edge and Topographic Oceans are also early pressing but they sound harsh and strident at times. I played Close to the Edge last week and the record is just not good enough for my critical listening needs. I was hoping Steve Wilson's Yes box set would be like the answer.

I need better sounding YES. I have a nice DAC so if I have to stream high res files so be it.

 

[WaynerN]

That's incorrect, the computer in the lathe is for timing and speed, the music doesn't go though any computer in a lathe. The lathe computer controls the lathes actions only.

So that comment was about as useless as the rest of this thread. It lacks any information of catalog #, Matrix # Country of Origen, Pressing Plants, mastering lab.

Then the all important equipment used in your self proclaimed review, Table, Cartridge, Loading, Phono stage will all have an effect on how a record sounds. I can load a cartridge and make a record sound flat or distorted. In turn I can play most my records and they all sound great at my settings. I can then put one record on that sounds distorted but if I switch loading and gain that particular title can sound great.

Just because a record sounds bad on your system , doesn't mean it will on others. Before the standardized RIAA EQ people needed to change the EQ for a specific record to match how the record was cut and EQed.

Here you go wise guy. Almost all of the vinyl made today has been turned into the digital domain, mainly because the analog tapes are in such bad condition. Obviously, the digital stream is turned to analog to cut the wax, but the digital file of the music is used to control groove spacing and some limiting of dynamic range.

https://thevinylfactory.com/features/analogue-digital-vinyl-mastering-interviews/

BTW, the Steve Wilson Yes LP was produced from HiRes digital files.

 

[WaynerN]

BTW, with a new record one should play it a few times before casting judgement. Polishing and breaking in the groove will have the SQ get better after a few plays.




I personally feel it's how an individuals vinyl front end plays the record that will have a big effect on SQ. I have bought high end records and had them sound bad compared to most of my records. But if I change loading and or gain or both the record sounds fine.

Playing a record will polish the surface of the grooves, helping to eliminate surface noise. Its not going to make a mono-ish sounding record turn into a master production. I have never heard such a change in my life.

My vinyl system is very good (at least to me). If it can play any other LP and produce great detail, air and separation, a poorly recorded LP will show up, no matter how many times it is played.

 

[damacman]

‘Ner - I’m gonna take your word for it and avoid these ...

 

[WaynerN]

Well, we have a problem. I received the box set yesterday and decided to play it from back to front, starting with Relayer. Relayer is a frickin' disaster. I have no idea what was going on, tho I always suspected that it was a shitty recording and no amount of spit and polish would make it any better, and I think I'm right on that. It has weird phase shifting, dull high end, and very mono-ish. A complete disappointment. I started TFTOs next, side one, felt that it too carried on with the same sonics theme (horrible) and that is as far as I got. This thread was started last night and its gotten kind of off track (and kind of ugly-----OK, some was my fault). That was yesterday.

After bumming out all morning, I decided to start at the other end, so I thru The Yes Album on. And......it is awesome. SOoooo to be fair to the LP and its creator, I am going to have to be more subjective on each and every LP. This LP also rides about 4 to 5 db below the normal average and on my meters, and that is at "0", but towards the end of side one, the meters actually went up to about -1db.

Now somebody was wondering what the audio chain is in my little vinyl room so here it is: I have 2 lightly modded Technics tables that feature a turntable mat sandwich (the original, hard mat) with 2 additional soft .09" EPDM sponge mats, and RCA jacks rather then tethered interconnects. The cartridge body is an AT440MLa, the stylus is an AT150Sa (shibata). The phono preamp is the Audio by Van Alstine VisionQ. The line preamp is the Audio by Van Alstine EC+ Insight, the main speaker power amplifier is a Sony TA-N55ES, the main speakers are JBL Studio 530s. The second amps are 2 Marantz MA-500U monoblocks powering 2 JBL S109 Aquarius IV side speakers located on the side wall, slightly forward of my seating position. This is a 4 speaker, 2 channel playback system. It is very immersive and very detail capable. All interconnects are DIY (there is a thread here on how they are made, if you are interested), and there is nothing special about power cords nor is there a power conditioner.

I am now going to spin Fragile.

 

[dbxdx5]

Well, we have a problem. I received the box set yesterday and decided to play it from back to front, starting with Relayer. Relayer is a frickin' disaster. I have no idea what was going on, tho I always suspected that it was a shitty recording and no amount of spit and polish would make it any better, and I think I'm right on that. It has weird phase shifting, dull high end, and very mono-ish. A complete disappointment. I started TFTOs next, side one, felt that it too carried on with the same sonics theme (horrible) and that is as far as I got. This thread was started last night and its gotten kind of off track (and kind of ugly-----OK, some was my fault). That was yesterday.

After bumming out all morning, I decided to start at the other end, so I thru The Yes Album on. And......it is awesome. SOoooo to be fair to the LP and its creator, I am going to have to be more subjective on each and every LP. This LP also rides about 4 to 5 db below the normal average and on my meters, and that is at "0", but towards the end of side one, the meters actually went up to about -1db.

Now somebody was wondering what the audio chain is in my little vinyl room so here it is: I have 2 lightly modded Technics tables that feature a turntable mat sandwich (the original, hard mat) with 2 additional soft .09" EPDM sponge mats, and RCA jacks rather then tethered interconnects. The cartridge body is an AT440MLa, the stylus is an AT150Sa (shibata). The phono preamp is the Audio by Van Alstine VisionQ. The line preamp is the Audio by Van Alstine EC+ Insight, the main speaker power amplifier is a Sony TA-N55ES, the main speakers are JBL Studio 530s. The second amps are 2 Marantz MA-500U monoblocks powering 2 JBL S109 Aquarius IV side speakers located on the side wall, slightly forward of my seating position. This is a 4 speaker, 2 channel playback system. It is very immersive and very detail capable. All interconnects are DIY (there is a thread here on how they are made, if you are interested), and there is nothing special about power cords nor is there a power conditioner.

I am now going to spin Fragile.

Agree about Relayer. Shame because it's one of my favorites.

 

[4-2-7]

Almost all of the vinyl made today has been turned into the digital domain,

Nope, and you know this is generalizing.

mainly because the analog tapes are in such bad condition.

Some are, and some are perfect, some get restored and even splice in new tape made from a record or digital files. It all depends on the best approach for a given master tape. Once they are done restoring a tape they will make a direct recording to digital of it so now they have both.

but the digital file of the music is used to control groove spacing and some limiting of dynamic range.

Nope

https://thevinylfactory.com/features/analogue-digital-vinyl-mastering-interviews/

^^^^This^^^^ said nothing related to

All vinyl cut nowdays is brought into the digital domain so that the cutting lathe computer can adjust groove spacings.

^^^^This^^^^^

BTW, the Steve Wilson Yes LP was produced from HiRes digital files.

I haven't looked it up but yeah the mastering lab could have got hi-res files from the label to master the lacquer from.

1)Lots of tapes can't be shipped over seas just because of the risk involved.
2) Some mastering techs might even make their own digital file from the master tapes so they can do their work in the digital domain.
3) Some will get the master tape and do all their work with that.
4) In a lot of cases with newer music there might not be any tape at all because all the recording was done digitally.

There might be five new different copies of a title out on the market right now and everyone of them used a different process to get the the end result.

Hell half your box set could have been done one way and the other half another way. It also could of had a couple different pressing plant doing the records, some tiles at one plant and a few at another.

Now somebody was wondering what the audio chain is in my little vinyl room so here it is:

Do you have any adjustability in your phono staging and the cartridges is what is important.

 

[WaynerN]

There are digital files of almost every analog record ever made, how do you think we got CDs and HiRes formats? I've watched videos on cutting records. They don't need the analog tapes any more, they don't ship tapes anywhere, they send the digital file. Sure there are some purist analog LPs, but not many.

 

[WaynerN]

I have finished listening to the box set this afternoon. Wilson has fiddled with so many sonic signatures and hooks on almost every LP, I don't even know how to process it yet. I've been listening to Yes since 1970, pretty much have them memorized note for note. There are literally hundreds of altered states going on here. Instead pf Wakeman's synth going from left to right on the original, it just stays in the right channel and fades out. The choral balance of the guys is out of balance. I don't think I remember hearing Chris but can hear Howe. Some places the cymbal crash sounds nice and precise, other places its got some weird phase shifting going on, or not well defined. The space in the recording keeps changing as well and it changes often. Sometimes critical hooks are over emphasized, in other parts, its dropped way back, almost to boring.

I wonder if Yes approved of such tinkering.

If I can summarize the whole mess, sonically I'd give The Yes Album and Fragile 5 stars. CTTE would get 4, TOTO gets 3 stars and Relayer 1. The Yes Album and Fragile are close to the originals and I could live with them if I didn't have the earlier copies. CTTE is kind of ruined for me as there are some critical sonic signatures that have been unbalanced, that is also the case with TOTO as well. Relayer is a disaster.

If you google reviews for this box set, you will find the reviews all over the board.

Somethings are best left alone.

 

[4-2-7]

WaynerN Please do watch these vids I think you'll enjoy them and get a lot of info out of them. In the Sterling one you'll see a tape deck with a preview head that coltrols the laith, the audio signal goes to the cutter head of lathe
Analogplanet.com Visits Bernie Grundman Mastering

Bernie Grundman on Transferring Blue Note Tapes

Bernie Grundman Masters "When the Levee Breaks"

Analogplanet Visits Sterling Sound and Interviews Mastering Engineer Ryan K. Smith

 

[4-2-7]

Miles Showell has a lot of good info and does work both in digital domain and analogue. He talks about it here
Half-Speed Mastering at Abbey Road Studios

 

[4-2-7]

There are digital files of almost every analog record ever made, how do you think we got CDs and HiRes formats? I've watched videos on cutting records. They don't need the analog tapes any more, they don't ship tapes anywhere, they send the digital file.

Yes but this is not what I disputed when I first quoted you in post #24...

All vinyl cut nowdays is brought into the digital domain so that the cutting lathe computer can adjust groove spacings.

This is a false statement because it's not how the equipment works.

Here you go wise guy

So I get a snotty attitude when I point out you fallacies so it doesn't miss lead others?

You can rant all you want and not like how something sounds that's all fine. But the comment I quoted was incorrect, deal with being wrong instead of taking it out on others. .