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Thinking about MC cartridges

B

Billybob09

New Member
Hey yall,

Recently got a rega p3 turntable for a steal. Has the original rega bias cart (green one). Was thinking of upgrading to another cart, particularly moving coil. However, i do not have any knowledge of mc carts. Ive heard your preamp must have a mc option. Mine does not. But i have read threads that you can run a high output mc cart with preamps that do not have an mc setting.

Is this true?

Was looking at dropping a few bills on a good cart. Maybe the dynavector 10x5 or 20x2, or an ortofon bronze or black if mc may not be worth it.

Just for further info, i am running bozak b4000s with 2 gas grandson power amps with gas "the bridge" and gas thalia preamp.

Thanks in advance, look forward to seeing what everyone has to say

-Billy
 
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Low output MC offers some upward potential if you're willing to go down that rabbit hole and accept the associated costs and disadvantages. With that said, how good any MC cart sounds depends on many things, including your end of it. Some of the MM, MI, MP carts can be so good that you don't necessarily have to get into MC to achieve a very high level of performance.
 
Don't go down that rabbit hole. There's plenty of great mm units out there with easily replaceable styli.

I just busted my 301 mkII cantilever off and was so disgusted I smashed what was left with a ball peen hammer. Effing tonearm should have a lock on it.
 
The input sensitivity of the Thalia is 3.2mV, required to get full output from the preamp to an output level of 2V.
The Grandson only need 0.7V to reach full output. So I'm guessing you don't use all the volume control, just a small part of it. If this is true a HOMC would be a nice upgrade in sound.

Most HOMC have lower than MM outputs, 1.5-2.9mV vs the 4mV common in MM. So they need more volume control but usually only a notch or three. Enough to be noticeable but not enough to run out of volume and not being able to play loud.

I'd try one. Both Dynas put out voltage on the high end of the range for these cartridges and would work well.
 
I second mkane's suggestion. You've already pointed out the fact you need a mc pre-amp. To really optimize the sound of the mc cart, you also have to be able to adjust the VTA of the cartridge. It can be done with the Rega but it requires shims under the arm.

If you stay with a mm, a new pre amp isn't necessary and there are no VTA adjustments required (as long as a Shibata stylus cart isn't on the list). You need to establish a budget for a new cart. The sweet spot for me is the $150 to $350 price range. Audio Technica, Grado, Ortofon, and Nagoka are some of the potential candidates.
 
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mkane said:
Don't go down that rabbit hole. There's plenty of great mm units out there with easily replaceable styli.

I just busted my 301 mkII cantilever off and was so disgusted I smashed what was left with a ball peen hammer. Effing tonearm should have a lock on it.
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Deep breaths, deeeep breaths. Now, count slowly to ten. C'mon, we'll do it together- wuuuuun . . . twooooo . . .threeee . . .
 
Whatever you do, just make sure the cartridge compliance is a good match to your arm. If you've not evaluated the resonance frequency of your arm, try the resonance freq evaluator on VE - start there first and see what sort of compliance to look for in a cart. You can find the effective mass of most arms by asking Google. Plug that value into the calculator on VE, then figure out what the mass of the cart you are interested in. Once you do that, you'll see the best range of compliance down the table. Aim for the green values in the table.

I have found the MM that makes me happiest is a Grace F-9. By far, the best MM I have ever heard. But, I almost never have a MM on my arm.
 
I'll just chime in to say that I have had very good experience with Dynavector. My first encounter was with a 10x4 (one of six cartridges from different manufacturers that I was reviewing), subsequently bought a 20XH to mount on my Well Tempered Classic. Finally got a Te Kaitora for that table (running it through the MC side of an Audiomat phono preamp). During the many years I was using a TD160 with a TP-16 arm in a second system, I mounted a 10X5 on that. I love the house sound of Dynavector. I have nothing against the idea of your sticking with MM or MI, but I've had a great time with Dyna in both high and low putput forms.
 
When I got my P3, the best upgrade I made was a Darlington Labs MP-7.
I was previously using a Cambridge Duo and the MP-7 crushed it. I was running a 2M Blue, then a VM750SH.
The AT 750 I felt was on par with the HOMC SAE1000LT I had.
Get a dedicated phono stage and you may not feel the need to upgrade to MC.

There is a difference in MC, but like others have suggested, it is a rather deep rabbit hole.
Get a good phono stage and if you decide you want to test the MC waters you'll be ready.
 
Some folks have suggested a separate phono preamp. I went that route and found it unsatisfying and unnecessary. A good preamp will generally have a good phono stage (as long as you don't get something from the mid-CD era. If you get a LOMC, then you may need a step up device. Many good vintage preamps have exceptional phono stages with built in amplification for low-output carts. In addition, many of these preamps have cart loading settings on the front or the back - and some even have capacitance settings!

Again, a sure-fire way to get the most out of a cart - MM or MC is to make sure it's a good fit with your arm.
 
theflattire said:
There is a difference in MC, but like others have suggested, it is a rather deep rabbit hole.
Click to expand...
People are just concerned because MC start at a few bills and just keep going up and up, the first move usually knocks out most akers wanting to upgrade. But if you can buy em cheap or back in the day like I did, you can enjoy improved sound (now that is my opinion, YMMV and I'm not getting into an MM MC war) that the moving coil cartridges have to offer. I got a few great LOMC when I bought a tt that had it bolted onto the headshell.

As to compliance match, this is like hand grenades close enough is excellent and you don't have to hit 9.948-10.052 Hz exactly. Anywhere from the high 6Hz to the low 13Hz will work just fine. Best I ever heard was in the high 6Hz range, just most excellent. Understanding what the resonance frequency is all about and why the range and what the issues at the ends of the range are goes a long way in allowing you to enjoy more than one or two specific cartridges with the compliance to nail that 9.948-10.025 range exactly.
 
Billybob09 said:
Hey yall,

Recently got a rega p3 turntable for a steal. Has the original rega bias cart (green one). Was thinking of upgrading to another cart, particularly moving coil. However, i do not have any knowledge of mc carts. Ive heard your preamp must have a mc option. Mine does not. But i have read threads that you can run a high output mc cart with preamps that do not have an mc setting.

Is this true?

Was looking at dropping a few bills on a good cart. Maybe the dynavector 10x5 or 20x2, or an ortofon bronze or black if mc may not be worth it.

Just for further info, i am running bozak b4000s with 2 gas grandson power amps with gas "the bridge" and gas thalia preamp.

Thanks in advance, look forward to seeing what everyone has to say

-Billy
Click to expand...

First, a good LOMC can be had under $300, a decent phono pre to support one with loading options can be purchased for under $100. Sure you can spend the price of a new car for a LOMC but it's not necessary for great sound.

As for someone smashing their Denon DL-301MKII due to a broken cantilever, it's easy enough to have one re-tipped. :dunno:. Had Joseph retip my Denon DL-301 and it's superb on my Kenwood KD-770D.
 
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If it helps..

I've replaced my 2M Black with a Dynavector 10x5 mk11 Low. The Black was excellent - 4 yrs of ownership.

The Dynavector is better. It's thumping out the tunes as I write. Very happy with it.

As for a phono stage - a good one is definitely worth it. I use an Avid Pellar.
 
My preference runs to moving coil cartridges, but i am willing to put up the with peculiarities of the breed. The main downside is that you have to send them off to get a new diamond fitted when you wear it out. Diamonds are going to start showing wear at 1000 hours, and typically top out closer to 1800 hours if you keep your records clean and you align the cartridge well. But on the other hand the user replaceable stylus on a moving magnet cartridge typically sells for 90% of the cost of the cartridge. Very few are reasonably priced, and your savings is minimal. For instance, an Ortofon 2M Bronze sells for $419 and the stylus costs $335 to replace.

There are high output moving coil cartridges that can be used into moving magnet inputs. Dynavector 10X5 is one as is the 20X2, and there is a high output Ortofon that can still be found. Denon has the DL110, and Sumiko has the Songbird. There is a high output Hana cartridge as well.

If you only have a moving magnet input you can use a low output moving coil but you are going to need a step up device. There are solid state pieces that can do this, or there are also transformer based ones. The transformer ones are often referred to a SUT.

I have only heard a couple of MM cartridges I liked, a Shure V15MR, and a Vessel with ruby cantilever. I would be interested in hearing the better Soundsmith or the London Decca cartridges. There is a Grace with a ruby cantilever which I have not heard, but the aluminum F9 versions are no great shakes in my opinion. Others think they are the cats meow, so take this for just the opinion of a simple country pig.

If you read this board deep enough, you will find posts where folks say I tried moving coil and I have no idea why I waited this long. on the flip side you will find a post every once in a while, where someone says they prefer moving magnet over their previous moving coil. The former outpaces the latter, but it also means there is not consensus. Basically, you are going to have to pay your monies and take your chances. Or find a way to hear a moving coil cartridge before you commit money.
 
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Mister Pig said:
Or find a way to hear a moving coil cartridge before you commit money.
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.....and preferably, in your own system using the components that you would ordinarily be employing. Going to some hi-end shop and hearing a moving coil cartridge that you are interested in, which in itself is somewhat of a challenge these days, is not likely to serve you very well. Synergy is the name of the game here, and it's really, really difficult to accomplish unless you can audition stuff in your own system. So, do you have any friends who might have cartridges you're interested in that you can listen to on your system? If not, there is at least one retailer that permits you to make a purchase and if not happy, return it.....return shipping at your expense but with something like a cartridge, that is normally a small expense and well worth the outlay when you consider that you are able to find out if you're happy or not before making the larger $$$ commitement. And yes, as others have mentioned, you should be fine running a high output mc cartridge using your MM phono input. Have some fun and let us know what happens!
 
homebrew said:
I second mkane's suggestion. You've already pointed out the fact you need a mc pre-amp. To really optimize the sound of the mc cart, you also have to be able to adjust the VTA of the cartridge. It can be done with the Rega but it requires shims under the arm.

If you stay with a mm, a new pre amp isn't necessary and there are no VTA adjustments required (as long as a Shibata stylus cart isn't on the list). You need to establish a budget for a new cart. The sweet spot for me is the $150 to $350 price range. Audio Technica, Grado, Ortofon, and Nagoka are some of the potential candidates.
Click to expand...

Needing to adjust VTA is a factor of cartridge height, it has nothing to do with whether it's a MM, MI, or MC, high or low output. Added to this a need for a more critical VTA setting has to do with the stylus profile, again nothing to do with the generator type.
 
I'm no expert.
I have considered MC carts. Never tried one.
If you don't have an MC phono pre or SUT. Your looking at no small expenditure.
Investigate your Rega tonearm to find its mass or compliance. Even if you decide to get a better MM cart. Get a cart with a reasonably close compliance match.
Like speakers, each cart will have its own voice. And opinions are going to be all over the place.
Don't short cut your investigation process.
 
I have also considered this topic. One thing that comes to mind is if one can get the flavor of MC by trying a HOMC thus skipping the expense of SUT or MC capable preamp. Or if it’s better to bypass that route and jump all into LOMC. I wish there was some sort of cart loaner program where one could try before you buy but that’s probably hard to do for a lot of reasons.
 
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