This Thing Gets LOUD
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Fred Sanford
Addicted Member
Frequency response (or lack thereof) between different amps, coupled with which weighting you're using on your SPL meter, could give readings that differ from what you'd expect from simple wattage specs.
je
So, is it your contention that two audio amplifiers, producing equal output, can produce a noticeably different (by 3dB or more) SPL reading through the same pair of speakers as a result of any of the variables you've introduced?
Would my initial contention be PRECISELY correct if I add the following qualifiers:
Neither amp is in clipping
Both amps have identical output curves from 20Hz-20KHz
The power cords of both amps are of equal lengths
The mains power supply is providing exactly 120V/60Hz to each amplifier
There are no active sunspots
Would my initial contention be PRECISELY correct if I add the following qualifiers:
Neither amp is in clipping
Both amps have identical output curves from 20Hz-20KHz
The power cords of both amps are of equal lengths
The mains power supply is providing exactly 120V/60Hz to each amplifier
There are no active sunspots
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robgmn
Super Member
I hooked up an EQ so mine can be louder than eleven.
Sweet!
Oh, and measurement standards:
They have them now, and mfgrs. must provide a rating WITH an explanation of what standard they use (i.e. 20hz-20KHz, all channels driven, .xx% distortion, etc. vs. 1KHz tone at xx.x% distortion, etc.
The days of 500 watt amps that weigh 2 pounds are over
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
That difference is related to a combination of the actual value (in Ohms) of the volume control and the sensitivity of the amplifier.
Fred Sanford
Addicted Member
Absolutely, although there's still a chance that I'm misunderstanding you, or filling in missing bits with my own parameters.
One of the elements not mentioned in your statement is time. One clean amp could peak at a certain SPL reading, where a clipping amp would be closer to averaging at that SPL reading, yet peaking at or near the same reading. Your SPL meter reading's setting of slow or fast would also enter in to the results, along with the A or C weighting, the amplifiers' response curves, plus the test program material also enters into it- whether it's a steady tone or dynamic music.
This happens all the time with guitar amplifiers, where some amps are designed to stay clean, and others are designed to clip in a predictable way. Plus, some guitar sounds introduce clipping & compression either before or within the preamp, which raises the average level of the signal.
There are just too many parameters left out, to me.
Now it sounds like you're just mocking me, when I was simply responding to your "However, I am always open to correction" statement.
Carry on...have fun.
je
Fred Sanford
Addicted Member
^ See that part you mentioned in your initial post? You're saying that some amps will reproduce dynamics better than others at high output (speakers do the same thing, by the way *), but you're not taking into account that the results of the system NOT reproducing things accurately is that the apparent average loudness will actually increase when dynamics are not reproduced accurately.
je
* From http://www.jblpro.com/pages/general_faq.htm#What is "power compression"?
I stand corrected. I have been absolutely wrong in my assertion that two amps of equivalent output will produce equal volume throught the same pair of speakers. Instead, the volume they will produce will vary widely.
So contrary to my original assertion, some amps ARE much louder than others. In fact, I just picked up a Kenwood KR-3200. Man, this thing is LOUD....and the volume knob is only at 8 o'clock.
While wrong, I will continue to believe that as a practical matter, the same wattage fed by two different amps to the same speakers will produce equal loudness, assuming neither is grossly clipping. I also believe that the world is flat.
Fred - are there any scenarios in whcih equal amplifier output will produce equal loudness in the same pair of speakers? What are ALL the conditions required for this to occur?
So contrary to my original assertion, some amps ARE much louder than others. In fact, I just picked up a Kenwood KR-3200. Man, this thing is LOUD....and the volume knob is only at 8 o'clock.
While wrong, I will continue to believe that as a practical matter, the same wattage fed by two different amps to the same speakers will produce equal loudness, assuming neither is grossly clipping. I also believe that the world is flat.
Fred - are there any scenarios in whcih equal amplifier output will produce equal loudness in the same pair of speakers? What are ALL the conditions required for this to occur?
Hmmmm; might make a person think some of those lower priced amps are purposely designed to get "loud'' quickly. Problem is when they do that they also run out of "loud" rather quickly as well.
I think "LOUD" is the term used for audio gear because most people to this day judge the quality of a piece of audio gear by how loud it can go. I saw this all the time when I was selling off some pieces. People would come over and the first thing they do is crank it and say, "Yeah that goes pretty loud, that's good". Then they try to haggle and buy it and then ask how to hook it up. Nothing else gets looked at or examined except the rear of the unit to make sure everything is intact. No attention what so ever is given to sound clarity, quality, distortion points, etc. I see the same thing in stores today, people just walk up and crank the unit up full whack, act like they are an authority on it and say, "yeah, that goes loud man" and then they buy it or don't buy it if it doesn't go loud enough for them based solely on that.
Personally I'll never understand that, but it's not my ears or money so to each their own.
On a personal preference note I don't like loud volume on anything. It's true that there are classic units out there that have a shocking amount of volume ability while still able to stay away from distortion and other anomilies they should not really have. However, I like just listening level, but still able to hear when someone says something at normal voice level no matter what the abilities for volume are.
Personally I'll never understand that, but it's not my ears or money so to each their own.
On a personal preference note I don't like loud volume on anything. It's true that there are classic units out there that have a shocking amount of volume ability while still able to stay away from distortion and other anomilies they should not really have. However, I like just listening level, but still able to hear when someone says something at normal voice level no matter what the abilities for volume are.
fpitas
Committed dilettante
That's very cynical. And by cynical, I mean you're probably right.
sax6
Loudness always ON
:lmao: again !
sax6
Loudness always ON
Just my exprience.
2 days ago, got a mint SX-1050. It's a 120 watters.
Boy, I said, it will surely outperform ( gets louder ) my HK PM 655 ( 60 watters )
At first... dissapointed. Damn, I have to put the vol knob up to 12 o'clock to
get a '' loudness '' level never heard before in my basement.
Something's wrong. ?!!?
Well, this morning, listening at low level, I feel the power of the Pio.
Dynamics.
So, loud could, in my opinion, be more like fullfilling, envelloping, rich, non agressing sound.
The opposite would be called '' NOISE ''
2 days ago, got a mint SX-1050. It's a 120 watters.
Boy, I said, it will surely outperform ( gets louder ) my HK PM 655 ( 60 watters )
At first... dissapointed. Damn, I have to put the vol knob up to 12 o'clock to
get a '' loudness '' level never heard before in my basement.
Something's wrong. ?!!?
Well, this morning, listening at low level, I feel the power of the Pio.
Dynamics.
So, loud could, in my opinion, be more like fullfilling, envelloping, rich, non agressing sound.
The opposite would be called '' NOISE ''
Agree with your main point....just wanted to add that 2x as much power is only 3 db louder or something along those lines. The power in to db out curve ain't linear!
That's why having plenty of power is a good thing. If you have speakers that put out 88dB with one watt, and you like to listen at that level from eight feet away, you'll need approximately 3 watts to get the desired volume.
If you want to avoid (or at least minimize clipping), you'll need 48-96 watts (12-15dB of headroom). A good solid state amp can put out 1.5-2x its RMS rated output for dynamic transients without excessive distortion, so you do have a bit of built-in "dynamic headroom".
But if you want to step up to 91dB (noticeably louder than 88dB, but not a dramatic jump), you would need 96-192 watts!
And, of course, your speakers need to be able to handle the power necessary for the desired volume level (nominal and peak) without compressing/distorting/frying.
Scotty, we need more power!!
If you want to avoid (or at least minimize clipping), you'll need 48-96 watts (12-15dB of headroom). A good solid state amp can put out 1.5-2x its RMS rated output for dynamic transients without excessive distortion, so you do have a bit of built-in "dynamic headroom".
But if you want to step up to 91dB (noticeably louder than 88dB, but not a dramatic jump), you would need 96-192 watts!
And, of course, your speakers need to be able to handle the power necessary for the desired volume level (nominal and peak) without compressing/distorting/frying.
Scotty, we need more power!!
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