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Thorens 126 MK III vs Empire 698

x2turbo

x2turbo

Well-Known Member
I'm looking for some opinions to help me make a decision. I have quite a few turntables and I need some help determining what table I should keep and what one I should let someone else enjoy.

I have a Thorens 126 MK III with a SME 3009 Series III tonearm and a Grace F-9L cartridge and an Empire 698 with standard equipped tonearm and an Empire 4000 DII cartridge. Both are fully functional and in exceptional cosmetic condition. The Thorens has the original box and manuals for both the tonearm and TT.

The table I keep will be paired with my VPI Classic 2 on my SX-1980. I listen to classic and prog primarily.

They both sound very good without any drastic differences that automatically make me want one over the other, so I'm trying to decide which one to keep long term. Chances are my grand kids will get stuck with the one I keep.

Are there long term issues that should weigh in on my decision? I did have to repair the tonearm on the 698. The plastic at the end came off, but it was a clean break and I fixed it with Tenax 7R plastic welder. Works just fine now.

I've read great things about both cartridges and don't really want to swap them although I may keep the Grace and replace with a new cartridge if I sell the Thorens since it's supposed to be very special.

I'm not sure how the two tonearms ultimately compare. The SME is certainly more complicated. Aesthetically the Empire is gorgeous IMO. I love the gold tone and the tonearm is beautiful too.

Whatever money I get from the sale will just be put back into the hobby. From what I can tell I paid a fair price for the Thorens and I got an awesome deal on the Empire. Not really looking for what it's worth though. That's another section of the forum.







 
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Drool..... lovely tables. If it were me I'd be keeping the Thorens simply due to the greater flexibility, but then I've always been a fan of the 126. That Empire is just stunning, though!
 
If I had that Empire, I wouldn't be able to part with it. So, there would be the automatic decision.

Doug
 
x2turbo said:
They both sound very good without any drastic differences that automatically make me want one over the other, so I'm trying to decide which one to keep long term. Chances are my grand kids will get stuck with the one I keep.
Click to expand...

Hello, I am your long-lost grandson named Dave. Please keep the Empire for me. :D
 
Both are nice tables. The Empire is bone stock and will just keep on getting more difficult to find or replace in it's condition. On the other hand you can change tonearms or "play" with the Thorens and not feel guilty about making changes or expermenting. Can't beat the looks of the Empire, it really has that "wow factor". Could keep it just for the the serious looks. I would pick or use the same or similar cartridge on each and see which sounded the best and keep it. medicmike
 
Thanks for the replays guys. The more I look at them side by side, the more I love the the looks of the Empire. I spent the better part of yesterday listening to it on a SX-650 and it still amazed me on the sound. I think I'm going to move it to the main rig today and spend some more time with it than I had previously.

I also started to think that since I don't gave a cover on my VPI, I could make a 'set on' cover in the same style as the Empire. That may look sweet together.
 
I spent the last couple of days listening and hoping the answer would come to me, cuz the listening is the point.

I've decided to keep the Empire

The lows and highs are much better defined, but the mids have a bit of distortion. The arm has never been adjusted since I got it so I'm going to check vinylengine and see if I can find the manual to make sure it's setup right.

Probably not a bad idea to start thinking about a new cart or a replacement stylus if the setup doesn't do the trick. It currently has an Empire 4000 DII.
 
x2turbo said:
I've decided to keep the Empire.
Click to expand...

Good decision.

x2turbo said:
The lows and highs are much better defined, but the mids have a bit of distortion. The arm has never been adjusted since I got it so I'm going to check vinylengine and see if I can find the manual to make sure it's setup right.

Probably not a bad idea to start thinking about a new cart or a replacement stylus if the setup doesn't do the trick. It currently has an Empire 4000 DII.
Click to expand...

I just bought a 698 with a 4000D/III cartridge and found a NOS D/III stylus (near-twin brother of the D/II). It sounds fantastic, but I spent a lot of time tweaking the tonearm/cartridge to get the best sound. I have learned that the D/III is very sensitive to setup. I found that the rear of the tonearm needs to be raised up a lot to get the correct VTA/SRA:

attachment.php


According to Doug G., the goal is to get the bottom of the stylus housing to be parallel to the LP when playing, but this is difficult since the 4000D stylus bodies are curved at the bottom. Mine sounds best with the front vertical plane of the stylus housing (not the flip guard) perpendicular to the LP surface when playing:

attachment.php


Also, my stylus housing fit somewhat loosely and would work loose from the cartridge when I cleaned the stylus. The result was distortion in the mids. I put a very thin roll of white Blu-tak on either side of the rear of the stylus housing and then reinstalled. Works great. See above pic.

My 4000D/III seems to track and sound best with VTF at around 1.5g (slight suspension hardening?). In the 698 manual, Empire recommends that the anti-skate bias be set to 2X the VTF for the "4 Dimensional" stylus. This seems extreme and the arm will drift toward the outside when cued, but it does work to eliminate inner groove distortion. Start with this setting and back it down a little if it sounds better.

Also, check your motor grommets for wear/distortion. New ones can be found here:

http://www.esotericsound.com/access.htm

Scroll down the page a ways to see the grommets.

I hope this is helpful to you in sorted out your cartridge. It is worth it.

Happy listening,
Dave
 
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Someone in the turntable market is going to be very happy with your decision. I love the looks of the old empires, but I'd have a hard time choosing one over a nicely functioning TD-126.
 
Dave

Thanks for the awesome write up and suggestions. I think I know what I'll be doing this weekend.

As for the TD-126... Including it I have 5 tables that all get use at some time or another. My first thoughts were to move the TD-126 to someone that would put it to use like it deserves. I also have a PL-560 and a SL-1401 that are in perfect working order and I could theoretically bump one if those out but I don't know if that is in the best interest of audiokarma. If you know what I mean.
 
The Thorens gets my vote. The Empire is nice, but if your cartridge mount or tonearm has issues, you'll have a harder time getting an alternative tonearm mounted.
 
HEY x2TURBO -READ THIS BEFORE YOUR SETUP SESSION!

I was listening to my "last side before bedtime" and happened to recheck the Empire manual for cartridge setup and realized it has an illustration in Fig. D that shows the method for setting overhang: the stylus tip is supposed to be lined up with the front edge of the headshell. Mine came setup from the seller with the front of the clip even with the front edge of the headshell, putting the stylus tip way too far forward! :no:

Out of curiosity, I looked at the pictures you posted of your gorgeous 698 and it appears that your cartridge is just like mine was, way too far forward in the headshell!

I had to push the cartridge almost as far back as it would go in the headshell to get the stylus tip lined up with the front edge of the headshell and then make sure that the cartridge body was centered in the headshell (it can get off to one side when you move it back).

It's too late now to do any critical listening to see how this affects the sound, but I wanted to let you know before you start your tinkering session this weekend.

G'night and good luck,
Dave
 
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Thanks Dave

I'm just getting started and it certainly helps to have that step sorted early so I don't have to do things over again.

Just cleaned the shaft and lubricated it. The belt is a bit stretched and affects the start up speed bu still works. I'll need to track down a new one later today.
 
I wasn't able to get the cart as far back into the headshell as I'd have liked, but I did move it back about 3\16". When I moved it back far enough to align the needle with the front edge of the headshell it would not slip onto the tonearm. As it was it took a bit a finagling and trepidation getting the headshell on and the contacts working properly.I had to fix the tonearm end once as it is and figured getting lucky twice on this was pushing it.

The good news everything is set to a point to start listening and the great news is the mid range distortion is gone.

Getting everything setup on the 698 makes me appreciate the engineering on the VPI all the more. Especially the VTA on the fly adjustment, but in reality it was fairly straight forward for a 40 yr old table.

Time to let the vinyl spin!!
 
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