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Thorens TD-160 question (number 3)

JDG

Member
I'm having trouble matching the tracking force suggested for the cart I have to play results. The cart I'm using (Shure M75EJ Type 2) calls for 1.75g—3g, and I have a digital scale to measure the tracking force. To get in that range, I have to move the counterweight to the very end of the arm, which doesn't seem right. Then, when I play a record, the needle barely holds on. I can only get it to track consistently with 4.5g+ force, and the arm feels way too heavy. Any ideas? I bought this TT at an estate sale a while back. I've replaced the belt, oiled the main bearing, and replaced the stylus.

On a separate note, I sometimes hear a soft knocking sound in 33 speed, but not 45.
 
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I had the motor knock problem once and had to oil it quite a bit to get rid of it.

I took the platter and the bottom cover off to oil the motor. Add a drop down the motor spindle shaft and work it in. Add a drop from the bottom into the oil port and work it in. Repeat this several times while running the motor and moving the spindle shaft up and down. This worked for me and the knock has been gone for four years and counting.

Others have had to install this kit, which is made by an AK member: http://vinylnirvana.com/2012/10/tip-of-the-week-october-22nd-2012/motor-spindle-support-kit/

(no affiliation)

good luck, Bob
 
Tom, I am aware of the VTF dial. I did set it to '0' before floating the arm. What concerns me is how far back the counterweight is on the arm to get it to "float gracefully," as you say. The counterweight isn't even completely on the arm. If I push the weight flush with the back of the arm, it won't float. I have to push it off a tiny bit... However, I just readjusted with your instructions and all is well for the time being (counterweight hanging on for dear life, VTF set to 3).

Tom and Bob, I'll test the pulley and/or give her some more oil in all the right places tomorrow.

Thank you both so much for the quick thoughts/answers! The Thorens club is a good one.

Cheers,
Jeremy
 
You can always turn the VTF dial to add a little more downward force to begin with, then your counterweight will be moved more forward towards the arm's pivot. You'll need a tracking force gauge to do it that way.

Always put on a record (one that you won't care if it gets scratched), then you balance the arm so the stylus tip is just above the surface of the record. That's TRUE "0"! You want the stylus tip to be as close to the record surface as you can get it! Then you can use the VTF dial to set the VTF.
 
Another question: When I push on the spindle to make the platter gently bounce, I hear a soft squeaking. What's the likely culprit?
 
Are you aware of the VTF setting dial? It's at the top of the pillar, has a black face and silver numbers. It attaches to the back of the arm with a spring on wire and applies VTF regardless of the counter weight.
Try to set it to '0', float the arm parallel to the record by using the counter weight and test to see how responsive is the tonearm. If it's reluctant to swing gracefully, up and down, it could be the vertical bearings are too tight - but I doubt it.

From there, you apply VTF by using the VTF dial - not the counter weight. Each notch on the dial is equivalent to 0.25 grams. Try 5 - 6 notches up and measure with the scale.

About the knocking... Remove the main platter and the belt and try to jiggle the pulley gently up and down. You should feel the slightest gap. Any more than 'slight' and this may be the cause for the knocks.
I tested the pulley and the jiggle is slight.
 
You don't push down on the spindle. The middle of the sub-chassis is in the middle of the lead-out grooves (dead wax), you push down there. I get the same soft squeaking sound too. I guess it's just worn old rubber.
 
Springs out of alignment? Cue bar lift cable tangled? Who knows... Pop the bottom off and have a look. Best take some pics too...
So you're telling me to get over the fear of removing the bottom plate.... This is only my second foray into *minor* restorations and repairs of TT's. I'm a bit gun shy still. Any advice on best practice for removing the bottom safely would be much appreciated.
 
You don't push down on the spindle. The middle of the sub-chassis is in the middle of the lead-out grooves (dead wax), you push down there. I get the same soft squeaking sound too. I guess it's just worn old rubber.
If I just nudge the TT, I get the squeaking noise. You too?
 
There's a high side to each of the top of the sub-chassis springs. That high side should be furthest away from the platter bearing, pointing at the platter bearing. You'll get a perfect bounce and the platter will not wobble when it's spinning.
 
Update: I've floated the arm to get a true '0' and set the VTF to 3 on the tracking force dial. The first record I try weighs 180 grams. Perfect! Sounds fantastic. Next, I try "Uncontrollable Urge" on standard 120 gram vinyl. Uh-oh, we have a problem. Needle doesn't even catch the groove. So I try 150 gram record. Needle finds to groove and tracks for a bit, then loses contact, snags a groove for another second, skip, etc. Okay, I try a different 180 gram record. Again, perfect. Is it true that I have to change the tracking force for 180, 150, and 120 gram records? Or do I just set for 120 and deal with a little too much force for the other heavy records?
 
Arm height and/or cuebar adjustment will fix the issue you're having. But the Shure shouldn't be a particularly heavy cartridge, which raises the question why do you have to move the counterweight so far back to float the arm? Are you having some sort of extra weight on the headshell, or are you missing the auxillary counterweight? It screws on at the end of the counterweight stub, the weight is labeled "A" on the following picture http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/download/file.php?id=1779

All the adjustments can be a bit 'fiddly' but they are simple and you won't damage anything if you're being careful, there's no reason to fear the TT. Once you get over the initial confusion you'll learn how things work and what all the adjustments are for and eventually it'll be a breeze setting one up.
 
JDG, please post pictures of the entire arm, headshell, and turntable so we know more about what your are working with. Take pictures from the top, and then from the side of the tonearm.

If the tonearm, headshell, cartridge and counterweight were all correct and original, and settings were correct, with the VTF wheel set at 0, the arm should easily be balanced level in the vertical plane with the counterweight nowhere near the back end of its mount. Then the VTF (vertical tracking force) is dialed in with the wheel alone. See the picture of this stock TD160 with TP16 arm and TP-60 headshell:
td160.JPG


there should be a knurled end knob on the back end of the counterweight mounting rod. If yours is missing, that may account for lack of weight in the back of the arm, needing the black circular counterweight to be back too far. Also, if there is, for some odd reason, additional weight in the headshell or the cartridge is mounted way, way forward, that would need additional weight or distance on the back of the tonearm to compensate.

Here is the picture you posted of your tonearm gimbal in your first posts about turntable repairs:
160 gymbal AS off.jpg
Note the fact that the magnetic anti-skate mechanism is not in-line with the gimbal which is set at an angle like in the top pic - it has become detached from the gimbal base and swung back towards the rear. It may be possible to set it back - someone else may know how to put it back to its normal position.

You also mentioned you have missing set screws - the only set screws are two on the metal lockring that the tonearm gimbal cylindrical base mounts to - those screws set the static height of the gimbal housing, bearings, and hence the tonearm pivot point and tonearm height relative to the platter and record. If these set screws are missing, the gimbal falls down to its lowest setting - this is too low for the typical setting of the cueing bar (another set screw) at its lowest point and will cause the cartridge/headshell end to point upwards and allow very little downward travel for the cartridge and stylus. Here's how it should look:

Innovative-Audio-Thorens-TD-160-tonearm-and-cartridge.jpg


You should be able to find small set screws at Home Depot, Lowes, a well stocked hardware shop, or a hobby shop that sells RC cars or slot cars.

In any case, the process is to put a record on top of the mat and platter (be sure the platter mat is not super thick, 5mm is probably the thickest to use). If the cartridge and headshell are mounted properly, placing the stylus on the resting (and not spinning record) should have a level tonearm. If not, the gimbal base should be raised and locked when the gimbal is high enough to level the tonearm. (when you get more interested, you can adjust vertical tracking angle (VTA) by additional raising or lowering of the gimbal relative to the stylus).

Once the tonearm is level, then take the arm off the record, set it between the mat and tonearm rest so its free, then set the anti-skate and VTF wheel to 0 each. then adjust the counterweight so that the tonearm floats without resting on the cue bar. The tonearm should easily be lifted or let go without falling - it if feels like there is significant resistance in the vertical plane, the bearings are too tight, which can contribute to needing much more tracking force or poor tracking. Once the tonearm is level, then VTF is dialed in, and then anti-skate is dialed in if needed.

This also assumes that your table base is level, and that your suspension is free (the shipping screws are loose and not engaged underneath), and the suspension is correctly set, and the platter is also level and not bouncing when spinning. A small light plastic level of about 6 inches is easily sourced from HD/Lowes and helps with set up. A spirit bubble level is also useful in that regard for both the top plate of the base, the platter, and even the headshell.

Sorry for the long winded post. The TLC given to Thorens TT setup is paid back in spades by a properly working TT.
 
+1 on the possibly missing end piece on the arm. I'm not totally certain the original purpose, but I use mine for fine adjustment of the zero point.
 
Arm height and/or cuebar adjustment will fix the issue you're having. But the Shure shouldn't be a particularly heavy cartridge, which raises the question why do you have to move the counterweight so far back to float the arm? Are you having some sort of extra weight on the headshell, or are you missing the auxillary counterweight? It screws on at the end of the counterweight stub, the weight is labeled "A" on the following picture http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/download/file.php?id=1779

All the adjustments can be a bit 'fiddly' but they are simple and you won't damage anything if you're being careful, there's no reason to fear the TT. Once you get over the initial confusion you'll learn how things work and what all the adjustments are for and eventually it'll be a breeze setting one up.
Yep, I am missing the aux counterweight. I didn't even see that I was missing it until you posed the question.
 
Misc pics of headshell, tonearm, counterweight, etc
 

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