Thorens TD 160 vs TD 124
- Thread starter malden
- Start date
beatcomber
AK Member
malden
Lunatic Member
the 124 is a cool looking turntable, but I will pass on it
I usually stay out of these conversations because "if you don't have anything nice to say..." but I think I'll break my silence in this case.
I have had many opportunities to hear numerous 124's (and Garrard 301's as well) at the Capital Audiofest shows for the past several years. I'm talking totally pimped out units, rebuilt from the ground up in the kind of plinths that would kill someone and damage the concrete they were walking on if one fell on them. Absolutely GORGEOUS looking. Some were hooked up to period correct systems with big horn speakers that dug deep into the bass, some to newer gear hooked up to mini-monitors that didn't go much below 100Hz but were so clean otherwise you didn't miss the lack of true bass.
And every single one of those turntables had such objectionable rumble that all I could do was just shake my head. The big horn speakers had a mighty low growl that couldn't be ignored and though it wasn't audible per se from the mini-monitor speakers, I heard the effects of the rumble in the mud that plagued the upper-mid bass. Not a good sound at all. And, again with every one of them, when touching the finger-lift of the various tone arm/cartridge combinations or the top plate of the turntables, I "felt" the rumble. I find it hard to believe that all of these units were not working as they should. If it was just one or two out of the dozen or so I've seen through the years...okay. (It isn't unusual to see up to three or four idlers total like the 124 or 301 in various rooms at a given show.) But all?
I do agree with people on one point. There is a seductive forcefulness in sound an idler driven TT has that I rarely if ever hear with other drive systems. But for me, it's not a worthwhile tradeoff. 124 vs. 160? 160 wins for me hands down. No contest. Which is a shame. I want to like the 124 and 301 (I love the way they look) but my ears say "ummm...no."
Rant over. As you were.
I have had many opportunities to hear numerous 124's (and Garrard 301's as well) at the Capital Audiofest shows for the past several years. I'm talking totally pimped out units, rebuilt from the ground up in the kind of plinths that would kill someone and damage the concrete they were walking on if one fell on them. Absolutely GORGEOUS looking. Some were hooked up to period correct systems with big horn speakers that dug deep into the bass, some to newer gear hooked up to mini-monitors that didn't go much below 100Hz but were so clean otherwise you didn't miss the lack of true bass.
And every single one of those turntables had such objectionable rumble that all I could do was just shake my head. The big horn speakers had a mighty low growl that couldn't be ignored and though it wasn't audible per se from the mini-monitor speakers, I heard the effects of the rumble in the mud that plagued the upper-mid bass. Not a good sound at all. And, again with every one of them, when touching the finger-lift of the various tone arm/cartridge combinations or the top plate of the turntables, I "felt" the rumble. I find it hard to believe that all of these units were not working as they should. If it was just one or two out of the dozen or so I've seen through the years...okay. (It isn't unusual to see up to three or four idlers total like the 124 or 301 in various rooms at a given show.) But all?
I do agree with people on one point. There is a seductive forcefulness in sound an idler driven TT has that I rarely if ever hear with other drive systems. But for me, it's not a worthwhile tradeoff. 124 vs. 160? 160 wins for me hands down. No contest. Which is a shame. I want to like the 124 and 301 (I love the way they look) but my ears say "ummm...no."
Rant over. As you were.
malden
Lunatic Member
I usually stay out of these conversations because "if you don't have anything nice to say..." but I think I'll break my silence in this case.
I have had many opportunities to hear numerous 124's (and Garrard 301's as well) at the Capital Audiofest shows for the past several years. I'm talking totally pimped out units, rebuilt from the ground up in the kind of plinths that would kill someone and damage the concrete they were walking on if one fell on them. Absolutely GORGEOUS looking. Some were hooked up to period correct systems with big horn speakers that dug deep into the bass, some to newer gear hooked up to mini-monitors that didn't go much below 100Hz but were so clean otherwise you didn't miss the lack of true bass.
And every single one of those turntables had such objectionable rumble that all I could do was just shake my head. The big horn speakers had a mighty low growl that couldn't be ignored and though it wasn't audible per se from the mini-monitor speakers, I heard the effects of the rumble in the mud that plagued the upper-mid bass. Not a good sound at all. And, again with every one of them, when touching the finger-lift of the various tone arm/cartridge combinations or the top plate of the turntables, I "felt" the rumble. I find it hard to believe that all of these units were not working as they should. If it was just one or two out of the dozen or so I've seen through the years...okay. (It isn't unusual to see up to three or four idlers total like the 124 or 301 in various rooms at a given show.) But all?
I do agree with people on one point. There is a seductive forcefulness in sound an idler driven TT has that I rarely if ever hear with other drive systems. But for me, it's not a worthwhile tradeoff. 124 vs. 160? 160 wins for me hands down. No contest. Which is a shame. I want to like the 124 and 301 (I love the way they look) but my ears say "ummm...no."
Rant over. As you were.
As I mentioned elsewhere in this forum, I would never sell the TD 160. Of the dozen or so tt's I own, it is my daily user. The 124 is very cool looking but I don't want to sink time and money into something that is a lateral move, or worse, a downgrade in sound and performance.
beatcomber
AK Member
I usually stay out of these conversations because "if you don't have anything nice to say..." but I think I'll break my silence in this case.
I have had many opportunities to hear numerous 124's (and Garrard 301's as well) at the Capital Audiofest shows for the past several years. I'm talking totally pimped out units, rebuilt from the ground up in the kind of plinths that would kill someone and damage the concrete they were walking on if one fell on them. Absolutely GORGEOUS looking. Some were hooked up to period correct systems with big horn speakers that dug deep into the bass, some to newer gear hooked up to mini-monitors that didn't go much below 100Hz but were so clean otherwise you didn't miss the lack of true bass.
And every single one of those turntables had such objectionable rumble that all I could do was just shake my head. The big horn speakers had a mighty low growl that couldn't be ignored and though it wasn't audible per se from the mini-monitor speakers, I heard the effects of the rumble in the mud that plagued the upper-mid bass. Not a good sound at all. And, again with every one of them, when touching the finger-lift of the various tone arm/cartridge combinations or the top plate of the turntables, I "felt" the rumble. I find it hard to believe that all of these units were not working as they should. If it was just one or two out of the dozen or so I've seen through the years...okay. (It isn't unusual to see up to three or four idlers total like the 124 or 301 in various rooms at a given show.) But all?
I do agree with people on one point. There is a seductive forcefulness in sound an idler driven TT has that I rarely if ever hear with other drive systems. But for me, it's not a worthwhile tradeoff. 124 vs. 160? 160 wins for me hands down. No contest. Which is a shame. I want to like the 124 and 301 (I love the way they look) but my ears say "ummm...no."
Rant over. As you were.
There must have been some issues with the tables you heard. My LS50's are very revealing - and I'm using a subwoofer too - and backgrounds are very quiet with my TD-124.
Were the tables you heard placed in massive multi-layer plinths like the one I made? That makes a huge difference.
Itty bitty plinths like this just don't bring out the full ability of a TD-124:
Every one of them had a plinth very much like yours, except for one that was very much "old school" if not an original plinth. One was even completely made of slate and supposedly weighed as much as a typical Wilson speaker.There must have been some issues with the tables you heard. My LS50's are very revealing - and I'm using a subwoofer too - and backgrounds are very quiet with my TD-124.
Were the tables you heard placed in massive multi-layer plinths like the one I made? That makes a huge difference.
I want to believe that they weren't running right, but all of them? Big odds, but possible I suppose.
beatcomber
AK Member
marcmorin
RIP 1953-2020
send it to me, i'll audition it on my maggies, and give you my opinionOr maybe my speakers are not as revealing as a I thought.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Most affordable turntables are going to have limitations and design quirks, it is the nature of a mechanical playback device. This includes the TD 124. An idler table is gong to have an issue with mechanical feedback from the motor to the platter, its a solid pathway, and cannot be dismissed. Now the TD 124 uses a belt to run the idler wheel through a stepped pulley to mitigate this, so it may be better than many other idler tables in this regards. When I use my TD 124 there is a moderate degree of woofer flutter on the speakers that use two 10" drivers per side. It's not minimal, but its not horrible. My table still has the stock wheel, although the motor has been serviced and silicone mounting bushings installed. It does not have the spring isolation system that came out a couple of years ago which is reported to improve motor isolation significantly. One day I should give it a try.
Now the question is the idler wheel and associated noise a death knell for the table? Because this I indeed the primary limitation to this design. For some people it seems to be, that cannot be denied. But at the end of the day a table strengths and liabilities have to be tallied, and a decision made if it is capable of playing vinyl back at a high level, or to the needs of its owner. Owners of the 124 value, its drive and dynamic attack, its immediate feel, and excellent sound stage. And no single table satisfies everyone. There are stories of owners who sold their LP12 for a 124 and are tickled pink. Then stories of owners selling their LP 12 for Technics SP 10 MK II. And stories of TD 124 owners selling their table for a SP 10MK II. And people who think the SP 10 Mk ii wasn't all that, and replaced it for an Oracle Delphi. I am of the opinion that you have to listen to a table/arm/cartridge combination for a good bit of time to get the full picture of what it is capable of.
What I do know is that my TD124 and Eminent Technology II arm combo is on par with my reference table, which costs a bit over $6k. My restoration costs were about $200 for motor rebuild and new grommet and isolation bushings. I installed the parts myself, and sent the motor out to an expert. I bought a beautifully finished stacked birch plinth with rosewood veneer and piano gloss finish for $500 including shipping. The arm cost me $700 off of US AUDIOMART. While not a cheap table, its cost is very reasonable for what you get when it is all said and done.
To the OP. It looks like you have a number of tables that have a minimal degree of restoration done to them. I would pick one or two to undergo a quality restoration and be brought back to their glory. Or sell the lot and get one or two excellent vintage tables that have been restored to factory condition. Then you have a table worth owning and enjoying. A vintage table that has been well used or neglected does not bring the best possible sound to you, and is never a trouble free piece.
Now that AR XB you own can be a gem. Marc Morin on this site is a wizard at restoring them, and so is Steve Frost. I have a modified AR XA done by Marc that comes very close in sound to my TD 124, it is the best value table I own. I would recommend talking to them about your table, it could be an end game choice for you. But also a TD 124 is a fine table, and not a bunch of hype. You have to decide if one is worth owning for you. But I think it is. Then again I have a Technics SP 10 MK II in my closet, and in a couple of years I might have a different opinion based on what I experience. Very little of this hobby is right or wrong, but rather a journey of how to experience music.
Regards
Mister Pig
Now the question is the idler wheel and associated noise a death knell for the table? Because this I indeed the primary limitation to this design. For some people it seems to be, that cannot be denied. But at the end of the day a table strengths and liabilities have to be tallied, and a decision made if it is capable of playing vinyl back at a high level, or to the needs of its owner. Owners of the 124 value, its drive and dynamic attack, its immediate feel, and excellent sound stage. And no single table satisfies everyone. There are stories of owners who sold their LP12 for a 124 and are tickled pink. Then stories of owners selling their LP 12 for Technics SP 10 MK II. And stories of TD 124 owners selling their table for a SP 10MK II. And people who think the SP 10 Mk ii wasn't all that, and replaced it for an Oracle Delphi. I am of the opinion that you have to listen to a table/arm/cartridge combination for a good bit of time to get the full picture of what it is capable of.
What I do know is that my TD124 and Eminent Technology II arm combo is on par with my reference table, which costs a bit over $6k. My restoration costs were about $200 for motor rebuild and new grommet and isolation bushings. I installed the parts myself, and sent the motor out to an expert. I bought a beautifully finished stacked birch plinth with rosewood veneer and piano gloss finish for $500 including shipping. The arm cost me $700 off of US AUDIOMART. While not a cheap table, its cost is very reasonable for what you get when it is all said and done.
To the OP. It looks like you have a number of tables that have a minimal degree of restoration done to them. I would pick one or two to undergo a quality restoration and be brought back to their glory. Or sell the lot and get one or two excellent vintage tables that have been restored to factory condition. Then you have a table worth owning and enjoying. A vintage table that has been well used or neglected does not bring the best possible sound to you, and is never a trouble free piece.
Now that AR XB you own can be a gem. Marc Morin on this site is a wizard at restoring them, and so is Steve Frost. I have a modified AR XA done by Marc that comes very close in sound to my TD 124, it is the best value table I own. I would recommend talking to them about your table, it could be an end game choice for you. But also a TD 124 is a fine table, and not a bunch of hype. You have to decide if one is worth owning for you. But I think it is. Then again I have a Technics SP 10 MK II in my closet, and in a couple of years I might have a different opinion based on what I experience. Very little of this hobby is right or wrong, but rather a journey of how to experience music.
Regards
Mister Pig
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Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
View attachment 741030 You could do this to your 124 Mister Pig.
Yeah but I am just a simple pig, I dont have Bob skills. And I am living in an apartment these days till our house sells. When we buy a new one, then the audio fun and games can happen again. But the two table I have out are my TD 124 and Mar Morin updated AR XA. That does say something.
Regards
Mister Pig
jgordon
Super Member
I'll chime in and agree with beatcomber... I bought a 124 for $300... put in maybe a grand and some time and effort, and have a killer deck. My noise between tracks is non-existent.
I did have an issue where my power cord was touching the motor, and transmitting a tremendous rumble into the plinth, which the arm and cart picked up. It was both audible and tangible, as well as frustrating. But straightening the power cord cured it in a few seconds once I identified it.
Also agree that maybe my speakers aren't sensitive enough to pick it up? Who knows.
I did have an issue where my power cord was touching the motor, and transmitting a tremendous rumble into the plinth, which the arm and cart picked up. It was both audible and tangible, as well as frustrating. But straightening the power cord cured it in a few seconds once I identified it.
Also agree that maybe my speakers aren't sensitive enough to pick it up? Who knows.
I usually stay out of these conversations because "if you don't have anything nice to say..." but I think I'll break my silence in this case.
I have had many opportunities to hear numerous 124's (and Garrard 301's as well) at the Capital Audiofest shows for the past several years. I'm talking totally pimped out units, rebuilt from the ground up in the kind of plinths that would kill someone and damage the concrete they were walking on if one fell on them. Absolutely GORGEOUS looking. Some were hooked up to period correct systems with big horn speakers that dug deep into the bass, some to newer gear hooked up to mini-monitors that didn't go much below 100Hz but were so clean otherwise you didn't miss the lack of true bass.
And every single one of those turntables had such objectionable rumble that all I could do was just shake my head. The big horn speakers had a mighty low growl that couldn't be ignored and though it wasn't audible per se from the mini-monitor speakers, I heard the effects of the rumble in the mud that plagued the upper-mid bass. Not a good sound at all. And, again with every one of them, when touching the finger-lift of the various tone arm/cartridge combinations or the top plate of the turntables, I "felt" the rumble. I find it hard to believe that all of these units were not working as they should. If it was just one or two out of the dozen or so I've seen through the years...okay. (It isn't unusual to see up to three or four idlers total like the 124 or 301 in various rooms at a given show.) But all?
I do agree with people on one point. There is a seductive forcefulness in sound an idler driven TT has that I rarely if ever hear with other drive systems. But for me, it's not a worthwhile tradeoff. 124 vs. 160? 160 wins for me hands down. No contest. Which is a shame. I want to like the 124 and 301 (I love the way they look) but my ears say "ummm...no."
Rant over. As you were.
