Thorens TD-160 with Shindo Monbrison

[Shindo-Joe]

Hello from up north!
I finally put my hand on a turntable to experience the true analog sound. 200$ for an original TD-160 in great condition seems too hard to pass on. So without any knowledge I’m jumping in to realize that theres a isht tons of stuff that I need to learn to make more educated choices...

The table is going to be connected to a Shindo Monbrison last Ken model circa 2012 phono stage. I see people getting step up transformers etc. I’m not certain what are the advantages and if its required depending on cartridge and stylus that is chosen.

The matching part between the system and the cartridge eludes me completely, so any light shed will help me greatly. Around a $500 -1K budget what should I look at if I use the original TP-16 and/or should I go and change the arm completely?

Thank you in advance for your guidance!

Jonathan

 

[sqlsavior]

Welcome to AK!

I sure would love to hear that Shindo Monbrison. I'm sure you must have seen Art Dudley's review, but if not:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-177-shindo-monbrison-preamplifier

The cartridge that I would most like to hear through it is my London Decca Super Gold. It would not need an SUT.

iirc, Art often used SUT combos that would overload many phono stages; I'll bet yours has lots of headroom. I've never had a Thorens, but there are dozens of variables with any record-playing front end, and learning them can seem like a lifelong task. It's usually fun, though.

 

[sqlsavior]

P.S. - Whether you need an SUT or not will depend on the output voltage of the cartridge you use. Most moving-magnet (MM) cartidges have an output of around 4 to 6 millivolts, and would not need any boost. High-output moving coil cartridges (HOMC) come close to MM voltages, often around 2-3 millivolts. Low-output moving coil cartridges (LOMC) typically put out one-tenth of these voltage ranges, i.e. 0.2 mV to 0.6 mV. Since your Monbrison has no internal transformers for LOMC boost, you would need to add them yourself in the form of an 'SUT' - a step-up transformer that actually has one transformer for each channel - two for stereo. But only if you choose a low-output cartridge.

The amount of boost of an SUT is determined by its turns ratio - the ratio of the number of turns of the primary windings to the number of turns in the secondary windings. A 1:10 SUT multiplies the input voltage by ten, and is probably the most generally useful ratio. Some SUTs are wound with multiple taps, and so have multiple turns ratios. An SUT with two ratios, 1:10 and 1:20 for example, is even more flexible. You would use the 1:20 setting for a 0.2 mV cartridge (.2 x 20 = 4mV), and the 1:10 setting for a 0.5 mV cartridge (.5 x 10 = 5 mV). The end voltage is not an exact requirement - the 1:10 ratio on the 0.2 mV cartridge would still work, but you would need to turn up the volume slightly, which actually means attenuating it less, not amplifying it more, so no problem. IME, SUTs also greatly reduce loading fussiness, except maybe for very unusual cartridges. As mentioned above, Art Dudley would often try using the 1:20 setting on a .5 mV cartridge, yielding 10 mV, which would overload some phono preamps, but not his Shindo Masseto.

Hope this helps. Thorens folks will advise about your tonearm, I'm sure. The Turntable forum would be a better place for this thread. You can ask a moderator to move it using the Report link at the bottom of your original post, if you wish.

Congratulations on your Monbrison! I'm jealous!

 

[Old Guy8]

From your words, I'm assuming turntables are a new thing for you? I would start with making sure spindle bearing has sufficient clean lub oil in it. Find a manual copy to check 160 setup info. You will eventually need some cartridge/tonearm alignment tools. (Alignment protractor, digital or mechanical stylus force gage, strobe platter speed disc.) Make sure table and tonearm is in tune. Ask questions in Turntable thread, for guidance on TT and cartridge.. That's a nice vintage table. I know nothing about the Shindo.

IMO, I would investigate maybe a used moving magnet cartridge in budget range, to get your feet wet, and try out TT. If it didn't come with a cart. Cart needs to be matched to tonearm compliance. Move to a better MM or MC cart and/or stylus later, when you have some experience with TT in your system. Cartridges like speakers each has it's own sound signature to match with system.

 

[Shindo-Joe]

Thanks for your answers, Indeed I just discover a whole new world! I think like you said the wise thing to do is to get my feet wet and get some bearings and yup, lube those spindle bearings too I guess! So, if I get this, as long as I stick with a MM cartridge I should be fine to get going to begin with. I certainly need to read more about the sonic differences about Moving magnets (MM) and Moving Coil (MC), feel free to pitch me good references to get my head around it! As for the tools I need to adjust this baby...Any kit I can order that will last and get me around for a while? Life is a succession of funny accidents...My 2 year old daughter just showed up in the kitchen with a big 71A tube that she took , not so delicately I assume because it is broken and so my DAC is MIA until I get the tube in...Tired of not having a source for the music I then went ahead and got me the nice Thorens...I feel like I just open Pandoras box! Succession funny “accidents” you gotta love the irony!

 

[Shindo-Joe]

Welcome to AK!

I sure would love to hear that Shindo Monbrison. I'm sure you must have seen Art Dudley's review, but if not:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-177-shindo-monbrison-preamplifier

The cartridge that I would most like to hear through it is my London Decca Super Gold. It would not need an SUT.

iirc, Art often used SUT combos that would overload many phono stages; I'll bet yours has lots of headroom. I've never had a Thorens, but there are dozens of variables with any record-playing front end, and learning them can seem like a lifelong task. It's usually fun, though.

Thanks, Once you listen to the Shindo musicality, accuracy and transparency its truly hard to go back. For my ears it is anyway!

 

[Old Guy8]

Pics of alignment protractor, digital stylus force scale, and speed strobe disc that I use.
But, if your knowledgeable about better phono preamps, this must be nothing new to you.

 

[doctor fuse]

Play with that TP16 arm for a while.

It can play almost any cartridge (you can take the fine tuning screw on weight at the very back if you need to reduce mass back there), it has a nice magnetic Anti Skating device, you can almost deactivate the spring controlled VTF control and move the counterweight (take the rear screw off and add a washed in front of the counterweight to get it closer to the pivot), and it has height adjustment (for VTA and SRA).
If you are feeling ambitious, rewire the arm. I kind of wish I did that, but I lucked into some arms I like even better (Rega RB300 with Michel VTA adjuster, and a Grace G707).
It's a pretty decent arm, it just looks awkward and plasticky.

 

[Shindo-Joe]

Thanks for all the advices. It seems to me that I am way past my level of competency by more than I’d like to admit. Let’s face it I need professional help...So is the Thorens! I went to local audio shop that do this kind of work all day long. Full tune up, new belt, changing arm wire, coax needed replacing as well and they will call me in a week or two with cartridges choices...I will come back to get your lights on the proposed choices...It’s my first table and I rather it be a positive experience

 

[Old Guy8]

Besides Thorens TD 160 information you might find searching this site. Go to Vinylengine.com to find information on both your turntable and its arm. It's a free site. But you have to register to download any files there. Arms have a Compliance number, reflecting the mass of the arm. And cartridges also should have a recommended compliance range, to help match it to various arms. I'm sure there's a lot more to it. Along with cartridge sound differences. There should be cartridge info on many models, there also. You can look up cartridges your audio shop might recommend. Talk to your shop about your phono preamp and its settings, when deciding on a cartridge. The speakers you have, your amp, room size, volume and music genre all play a part.
I'm no TT expert.
Getting your table setup for you isn't a bad idea, for first table. Ask questions about its operation and setup when you pick it up. About cartridge alignment. Stylus force adjustment etc. Stylus force adjustment within recommended range, can change its sound.
Find some Utube vids on turntable setup prior to. So you can get some background ahead of time.
Good luck

 

[ehoove]

The TP 16 tonearm is very underrated IMHO

Also look here:

https://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_dept_.htm

Regards,
Jim

P.s. I moved your thread to Turntables for better exposure

 

[ChristopherP]

Two sites you need to know about. VinylNirvana.com (belts, parts, know how) and Vinylengine.com (specs, manuals, information)

Good info from those above. Enjoy the journey.

 

[Shindo-Joe]

Wow! So much information out there its...Humbling! I finally got a hold of the specs of my Monbrison pre-amp phono stage, its apparently the exact same one as in Arts Masseto:



Not sure of what to make of it all...Is a MC from 0.2mV is necessarily a hight output? Is a 66db gain enough? Or, would I really gain this much jumping on the SUT bandwagon? Oh and one last thing and I’m stopping the questions for tonight...What about the stylus profile, do I need to pay attention to that? I know I’m probably over spinning a tad I feel like a whole new world just opened! Thanks again for your wisdom

 

[Old Guy8]

So what records are you going to be playing? All stereo? Or, are you into any pre '60 mono recordings or mono reissues? If you were into jazz mono records, for instance. Jazz or other vocals? Classical or jazz orchestra, complex, detailed music?
New condition or vintage with maybe noise issues?

 

[Shindo-Joe]

So what records are you going to be playing? All stereo? Or, are you into any pre '60 mono recordings or mono reissues? If you were into jazz mono records, for instance. Jazz or other vocals? Classical or jazz orchestra, complex, detailed music?

Good question. Not only new stuff, [ Cant believe I’m saying this) I’m into oldies as well! I have some mid 1940, 50s first press that are patiently waiting. Some are mono I think..Maybe with noise issue, hopefully pleasant noises mind you! As for the type of music its very eclectic, Jazz, Choirs vocals, lots of classical and good old rock, the 70s, progressive and indies as well and some newer stuff also...Dont tell anyone but I think Billy Joe Armstrong is fking genius too!! Do I need to add another tonearm to the table!!

 

[Old Guy8]

You don't have to. I have stereo and mono setup turntables. For mostly jazz.
I have a turntable I can switch identically setup Grado Gold2 stereo and ME+ mono carts on like headshells. I can switch in a couple minutes without VTF or alignment changes.
Many right ways to approach.
Or a compromise stereo cartridge, what ever that might be.

 

[Shindo-Joe]

P.S. - Whether you need an SUT or not will depend on the output voltage of the cartridge you use. Most moving-magnet (MM) cartidges have an output of around 4 to 6 millivolts, and would not need any boost. High-output moving coil cartridges (HOMC) come close to MM voltages, often around 2-3 millivolts. Low-output moving coil cartridges (LOMC) typically put out one-tenth of these voltage ranges, i.e. 0.2 mV to 0.6 mV. Since your Monbrison has no internal transformers for LOMC boost, you would need to add them yourself in the form of an 'SUT' - a step-up transformer that actually has one transformer for each channel - two for stereo. But only if you choose a low-output cartridge.

The amount of boost of an SUT is determined by its turns ratio - the ratio of the number of turns of the primary windings to the number of turns in the secondary windings. A 1:10 SUT multiplies the input voltage by ten, and is probably the most generally useful ratio. Some SUTs are wound with multiple taps, and so have multiple turns ratios. An SUT with two ratios, 1:10 and 1:20 for example, is even more flexible. You would use the 1:20 setting for a 0.2 mV cartridge (.2 x 20 = 4mV), and the 1:10 setting for a 0.5 mV cartridge (.5 x 10 = 5 mV). The end voltage is not an exact requirement - the 1:10 ratio on the 0.2 mV cartridge would still work, but you would need to turn up the volume slightly, which actually means attenuating it less, not amplifying it more, so no problem. IME, SUTs also greatly reduce loading fussiness, except maybe for very unusual cartridges. As mentioned above, Art Dudley would often try using the 1:20 setting on a .5 mV cartridge, yielding 10 mV, which would overload some phono preamps, but not his Shindo Masseto.

Hope this helps. Thorens folks will advise about your tonearm, I'm sure. The Turntable forum would be a better place for this thread. You can ask a moderator to move it using the Report link at the bottom of your original post, if you wish.

Congratulations on your Monbrison! I'm jealous!

Its really a thing of beauty, inside and out, not one circuit board in there...And the musicality with a good source is truly something else.

Now with all the generous advice one of you, mentioned Jeff day’s blog https://jeffsplace.positive-feedbac...6ga-tinned-copper-solid-core-headshell-leads/

So much great information and off course I drank that Koolaid like a thirsty kid from ethipia after a 50 min trying to outrun a wildebeast herd...yup, that bad...So, I’m redoing the tonearm wiring with Cardas clear 34 and Duelund tinned copper for everything else...and I mean EVERYTHING! (from the cart throughout the Thorens circuit, ic to Pre, ic to amp and to speaker...And to top it off I just ordered a custom cocobolo plinth with baltic birch bottom that will match my DAC so both sources on top of a new long overdue dedicated furniture. I’m smiling just thinking about it...Might as well embrace that hobby right?? I get to use the Weller as a bonus. That’s all it takes for a great adventure!



My questions: I’m thinking of having rounded corners to match the DAC, would that be such a disgrace? Also, the bottom was suggested with a 5/8 birch plywood. Anyone tried with say 1 inch bottom, maybe the plinth would need to be thicker or higher depending of your viewpoint, but it would also add some weight and rigidity...Am I wrong to see it as a good thing?

 

[totem]

Hello from up north!

Care to elaborate?

 

[Shindo-Joe]

Northern Canada! James Bay Area, look it up on a map I have polar bear sightings every once in a while, not joking! Unless you are polar circle I’m north

 

[Shindo-Joe]

The TD-160 is now up and running. I put a nagaoka mp200 on it. Doing A-B testing between Tidal and the phono and I’m quite disappointed. 20 records later more disappointed and a tad discouraged. The top end sounds more confused, less define, almost harsh and tiresome in comparison to its DAC counterpart...The final adjustments on the table have been done by a proshop. I really thought I would love the sound much much more. I know my DAC is awesome but still... I put only 10hrs on the cart and Nagaoka says 30hrs for the break-in period but I doubt I’ll see the kind of improvement I’m seeking.This cart is 4mv output which is more than enough for the 40db gain of the MM side of the monbrison. Anyone is welcome to pitch in as to what might be wrong beside my expectations? Maybe an MC cart would have been much better? I have a friend that is lending me an EMT-tds15 but I doubt its a good match for the TP-16 and I might go back to basic and be cautious before damaging his expensive cart...Truly at a loss here...May the night bring some wisdom and some insights from fellow AKers