Thorens TD 166 MKII not compatible with TP11 + TP62?

[DamagedGoods]

Hi! This is my first post in this forum. I recently bought a Thorens TD 166 MKII with a TP11 tonearm that has the TP62 arm tube (the one with the metal headshell) and it seems the TP62 is a very bad fit for the TD 166 mkII. I have attached a Stanton EEE 681 cartridge, which is 18 mm high, and in order to level the tonearm I need to raise it very, very high. Actually so high that I get issues with the arm lift and arm rest, and the lid is not possible to close since the inside will touch the suspension.

My cartridge might be slightly higher than normal, but I think most cartridges measure around 17 mm in height, so it's not a big difference. The TP63 arm tube, that seems to come with some (newer?) TD166 mkII models is a much better fit than the TP62, because the cartridge is mounted higher up, not below the tonearm. I wonder why Thorens even equipped TD 166 mkII with TP62, or are there some special cartridges that are "lower" that would fit?

 

[tnsilver]

The TP-62 wand has this bizzaro headshell that nobody seems to like. A TP-63 wand, if you can lay hands on one, will be a much better fit and easier to handle. It's a shame b/c the 681eee is one superb match with the Thorens. It does look odd though. Are you sure there's not too many spacers in the headshell underneath the cart that's forcing it down by so much? If not, you could try to install the 681 sans the rubber mounts, which will grant you an extra 1/8" (or so) to play with, albeit it might cause hum in some cases. The cue bar height is adjustable BTW. Don't worry about that. You can always release the set screw and raise it a bit to support the tonearm at its new height.

Welcome to AK!

 

[jbjsr]

I think tnsilver is spot on in regards to your cartridge mount / space between the cartridge and the bottom of the headshell. Your cartridge is mounted too low below the headshell.

View the pictures in this posting of same model table / arm. Zoom in on the cartridge/ headshell from the side view. Notice the cartridge is mounted tight to the bottom of headshell with no additional space between them.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Th...=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

 

[DamagedGoods]

Are you sure there's not too many spacers in the headshell underneath the cart that's forcing it down by so much?

Thanks for the input. There's no spacers above the cartridge though, only the mount piece that fits into the concave of the arm tube. I could maybe try without that one but I have my doubts it will work out well. I think my best bet is to find a TP63 to replace my TP62 with.

As for the cue bar I cannot raise it enough when the arm is leveled. The top part will leave a gap to the cylinder, exposing it for dirt and whatnot. Also, the lid will not close.

 

[tnsilver]

As for the cue bar I cannot raise it enough when the arm is leveled. The top part will leave a gap to the cylinder, exposing it for dirt and whatnot. Also, the lid will not close.

I didn't want to raise this issue before, but on top of the initial HS/cart mount issue, the TT's suspension looks way too high. Notice the gap between the platter and deck? It's at least 1/8" too high from where it should be on the tightest suspension. Also notice the tonearm mounting plate protruding above the deck? It's the same issue. Too high! You have to loosen the suspension springs stud nuts and let the whole floating sub-chassis sink down about the same as that gap. That will take care of the dust cover not closing down - as well as fix the suspension.

 

[DamagedGoods]

I didn't want to raise this issue before, but on top of the initial HS/cart mount issue, the TT's suspension looks way too high. Notice the gap between the platter and deck? It's at least 1/8" too high from where it should be on the tightest suspension. Also notice the tonearm mounting plate protruding above the deck? It's the same issue. Too high! You have to loosen the suspension springs stud nuts and let the whole floating sub-chassis sink down about the same as that gap. That will take care of the dust cover not closing down - as well as fix the suspension.

Hmm, are you sure about this? If you picture google the TD-166 MKII, you can see that it looks basically the same for me as for everyone else. I also read that the tone arm mounting plate should be raised 6 mm over the top plate, which is exactly what I have...

 

[bang4buck]

You want about 6mm between the bottom edge of the platter and the top plate, even all around. It may be the angle of your photo, or the lens, but that arm board looks way out of parallel with the top plate.

I think you're right, the earlier headshell was intended for "flatter" cartridges, such as the Ortofon VMS series that were standard equipment at the time. Later Thorens switched to Stanton cartridges, which are taller, and that may even be part of the reason why they came up with the new headshell design. I don't suppose you have the original mounting gauge, do you? The intent with the detachable wands was that all the adjustment would be done with spacers under the cartridge, until the needle tip matched the gauge. You would ideally never change the actual arm height.

As it is, you actually have those Stanton rubber blocks mounted incorrectly. The slot should slip over the metal "ear" of the cartridge. Of course, that would make your height problem even worse.

 

[tnsilver]

are you sure about this?

Honestly, I can't be 100% sure b/c suspension height is rather unit dependent, but all of my TD-16X TT's have the arm plate leveled with the deck and the distance between the platter and deck seldom exceeds 1/4". See if it bounces right. If I'm wrong about it - it should do the famous Thorens bouncy bounce dance for a few seconds. If it doesn't - it could be too tight, thus, too high.

 

[DamagedGoods]

You want about 6mm between the bottom edge of the platter and the top plate, even all around. It may be the angle of your photo, or the lens, but that arm board looks way out of parallel with the top plate..

Honestly, I can't be 100% sure b/c suspension height is rather unit dependent, but all of my TD-16X TT's have the arm plate leveled with the deck and the distance between the platter and deck seldom exceeds 1/4". See if it bounces right. If I'm wrong about it - it should do the famous Thorens bouncy bounce dance for a few seconds. If it doesn't - it could be too tight, thus, too high.

Distance between platter and top plate is ~7 mm all around, giving me 3 mm bounce margin between the inside of the platter and the motor pulley protection pin mounted on top of the top plate. Perhaps I can lower the suspension by 1 mm then.

The armboard is indeed tilting slightly to the left, i need adjust the spring on the leftmost side of the table ever so much.
I will do it and try to adjust so that the entire sub chassis is lowered by 1 mm, but it will not solve my overall problem. I was however offered to borrow a TP63 from a very kind person, so that should solve my issues temporarily at least.

 

[JohnT123]

I have the same table and arm. I hate the arm/headshell assembly.

The table wants a high compliance cart. The only 2 I had success with were a vintage Empire and finally an Ortofon OM 20. I don't know how compliant the OP's cart is but I had to reject a couple nice Stanton's because they were medium compliance And just didn't sound right on that very light arm.

I had to raise my arm very high to get my OM20 at the correct height. Then I had to adjust the cue lever height so the cart would raise high enough. The height of the OP's platter and the arm base look the same as what I have, right around 6mm above the deck.

In the picture it sure looks like the arm is low at the tail and needs to be raised. I removed my dust cover so I can't comment on that. When I got the arm parallel to the platter the sound just opened up and I never looked back. Another thing I did that helped the sound was to remove the stock platter mat and replace it with a thinner, softer rubber mat. Huge difference.

The arm and headshell truly suck but once you get the optimum setup for your cart it's a really sweet sounding table. It took me months of cart swaps and table tweaking before I was happy.

 

[DamagedGoods]

Alright then, the TP63 arm tube is mounted, tonearm is leveled and a Super OM cartridge with a Black Diamond 20 stylus (aftermarket OM-20 copy) is fitted. It sounds a helluva lot better than before.
Now I just need to do the final adjustments of the springs.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

The TP-62 wand has this bizzaro headshell that nobody seems to like. A TP-63 wand, if you can lay hands on one, will be a much better fit and easier to handle. It's a shame b/c the 681eee is one superb match with the Thorens. It does look odd though. Are you sure there's not too many spacers in the headshell underneath the cart that's forcing it down by so much? If not, you could try to install the 681 sans the rubber mounts, which will grant you an extra 1/8" (or so) to play with, albeit it might cause hum in some cases. The cue bar height is adjustable BTW. Don't worry about that. You can always release the set screw and raise it a bit to support the tonearm at its new height.

Welcome to AK!

To add to this thought. Stanton in the box for the 681eee thought about this. They included a plastic spacer to put between those metal where the rubber mounts go, and the headshell so you can mount it this way and use it without the hum problems.