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Thorens TD165 vs Linn LP12

MuZI

MuZI

New Member
I recently purchased a Thorens TD165 in great condition with a new VM540ML. It is working well for my needs but someone just posted a local ad for a Linn LP12 in great condition with a Linn Basik Plus Tonearm (Jelco) and a mint condition Linn K9 Cartridge.

I got the Thorens for about $350. Is the Linn worth and upgrade for $1,100?
 
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The LP12 has evolved so much over the years that it's impossible to answer this question without knowing its exact configuration. The original, bone stock LP12 is comparable to the good old Thorens TD150; mildly upgraded ones (e.g. with the Cirkus bearing and Valhalla / Hercules PSU) are more similar to the TD125. Modern models are completely different but I doubt anyone would sell a modern Linn for $1100, they are worth quite a bit more.
 
Imagin putting $750 worth of upgrades in your TD165 where would that take it ? But I became a tweaker doing so on a tight budget with my "cheap" TD160 'E' model. But maybe you prefer to leave them turntables of yours all OEM. The Linn's have their fans (naturally), their reputation (OK), their hype (if ever) and their myth (sic). The Thorens have their original design (the Linn's not), humility (smaller wallet) and tweaker's followship. More my scene. You'll hear a difference in playback but would that suit your ears better or justify the $1.100... You'd need a trial to verify that first. Is it the 'upgrade' bug call or your Thorens 'lacking' something to you ?
 
Unless it's indeed a very lucky price, $1100 for an LP12 is either going to be an earlier example, and/or armless.

For that money, I'd say just hang onto your TD-165, and consider keeping your eyes out for a TD-160 (possibly modded) or stock TD-125 if you get the upgrade itch. Then you have 2 great tables :)
 
Last year I went to a dealer to audition some very expensive speakers driven by Linn electronics supplied by the latest LP12. The LP12 was set up to factory specs and it was impossible to raise the tone arm cleanly without jumping grooves etc. I'll keep my modified TD125 MkII thank you very much. It ended my curiosity about a Linn LP12.
Regards,
Jim
 
I don't see how the Thorens is a more original design than the Linn. They are both descendants of the AR, which itself owes a big debt to the Fairchild.
This isn't to disagree about the general feeling that the Linn might not justify the significantly larger cost. But the Linn seems to me much more solidly built than the Thorens - the arm board of the 165 isn't too impressive. Whether that actually has any effect on the sound is arguable. I'm also not a mad fan of the arm, though the Basik probably is similar in quality.
But people have their own tastes and their own ears. What matters to me may not matter to you. If nothing but a Linn is going to scratch some itch, it might be worth it.
 
Nat said:
But the Linn seems to me much more solidly built than the Thorens - the arm board of the 165 isn't too impressive. Whether that actually has any effect on the sound is arguable. I'm also not a mad fan of the arm, though the Basik probably is similar in quality.
Click to expand...

Before they finally switched to the one piece subchassis-armboard combo (whatever it's called), Linn had been widely (and deservedly) ridiculed for a very, ahem, "lively" armboard connection. The armboard is really just nipped with 3 self-tapping screws from below.

The Basik Plus is a very meh tonearm even when it works properly, but the worst thing about them is the sheer number of Basik/Basik Plus/Akito mk1 tonearms with sticky bearings that are out in the wild.
 
Lol, all I need to do is start a thread. For hours you guys are battling it out with knowledge on the strengths and weaknesses. I don’t even need to ask more questions.
 
Both wonderful turntables. Linn is generally considered superior to Thorens, although I don't know how much of that is chalked up to marketing and retail costs driving perception. New top level Linns cost $30,000+, and the original, 'real' Thorens has been gone for many years. Aside from Thorens idlers, both Linns and most Thorens models are sprung, belt drives that make beautiful music. It can be hard to objectively compare used examples that are now decades old.

Nobody can do the math for anyone else regarding desire, value, and performance. If the Linn nags at you and you have the money and want it, you'll have to buy it to see whether the Linn thing is for you. I will say that I've owned two Thorens sprungies and they are right there with the best, quietest, most beautiful sounding turntables I've heard. I've been intrigued by Linn as well, but have never wanted to pay the premium to buy one, and would refuse to get on the huge dollar Linn upgrade treadmill.

Either way, you wind up with a wonderful machine.
 
I'd go with the Linn being easily the better turntable of the two in sonic terms.

Whether it's $750 worth of better is only something that you, your wallet and your ears can decide.
 
One of my friends uses a LINN LP-12 with a Valhalla board and an Ittok LVII tonearm. No table jumps when lifting ( and lowering ) tonearm - I have not seen him . And the sound is very good - I have been convinced of this many times . There were some problems with the Valhalla board - at his request , I repaired Valhalla . But nothing serious - I just replaced the faulty Philips capacitors, and everything worked again .... My friend also has a Thorens TD-125 with an SME 3009 tonearm. As far as I know , he likes both of these TT very much .
 
I am in almost exactly the same boat. I have about $400 into a Thorens TD-165 with the original arm, and I used a AT VM540ML on it for a while. Over the past 2 years since I got the Thorens and got it working properly, I have had the opportunity to buy several high quality competitors including a Linn LP-12. In the end, each time I have doubled down on the Thorens. I put Blue Jean cables on it as captive and found they were a good upgrade from the original cables (which were in admittedly POOR condition). I also damped a few parts of the plinth, polished the spindle bearing nicely with a little home-brew technique, got a new belt, and eventually spent the dough to put a Denon DL-103 on it and employ a quality step-up. THAT was well worth it.

As long as your 165 has the original arm, I would say save your money and get a DL-103 and a nice step-up/headamp and see how you like that. You may be very pleasantly surprised, and in the worst case, you'll have some easily re-sellable equipment (the cartridge and step-up) vs having to deal with the possibility (probability) of taking a loss because full turntables are difficult and potentially dangerous to ship when sold on the used market.
 
Nat said:
I don't see how the Thorens is a more original design than the Linn. They are both descendants of the AR, which itself owes a big debt to the Fairchild.
This isn't to disagree about the general feeling that the Linn might not justify the significantly larger cost. But the Linn seems to me much more solidly built than the Thorens - the arm board of the 165 isn't too impressive. Whether that actually has any effect on the sound is arguable. I'm also not a mad fan of the arm, though the Basik probably is similar in quality.
But people have their own tastes and their own ears. What matters to me may not matter to you. If nothing but a Linn is going to scratch some itch, it might be worth it.
Click to expand...

Just because it is. The AR 'XA' commercial success captured the '3' points suspended (sub) chassis design to inspire the likes of Thorens with the TD150 by 1965. The whole design was very much the same with merely few changes. As you say the 3 points design goes way before that. Even with coupled tonearm & platter. Anyway by the time the first Linn was out all could see that the LP12 was basically a 'blue print' of the TD150, later of the TD160 and finally even of the single point bearing. That also became the pinacle of the pathetic court ruling the schism of both founders of the Linn now then rivals in debacle...

For the rest I don't debate the preference of anyone for their Linn or their Thorens. And I know that the craft involved at Linn's was more meticulous and gear 'heavy'. The Thorens "industrial" approach evidently impaired the build finish of their turntables. But to what point... And on the other hand as a bigger group with greater means to allow them to be "inovative" on researches Thorens remained 'ahead'. And not all their 'upgrades" are to be regarded as costs production costs savings. The TP tonearms don't look or feel sexy but their 'sonic signature' is surprrinsingly good for their money's worth I have found.

Not a touch for the Basik tonearm for me. Where the basic (cheap even) Thorens's armboard may be most unsophisticated but they serve their purpose very well. If to upgrade them for something else can prove an improvement in playback it's really not always the case. Even less than often IME. This should really depends on the tonearm/cart as well. And I am a "daring" tweaker not affraid to totally alter the original sonic charasteristics of any components in the phono chain if it suits my ears better... Both the Thorens just like the Linn's are very evolutive turntables whose limits knows only few boundaries.
 
MuZI said:
I got the Thorens for about $350. Is the Linn worth and upgrade for $1,100?
Click to expand...

Keep the TD165. The arm and cartridge on the LP12 are nothing special ( had that combo on an Axis many years ago). So you'd have to upgrade both those on the Linn for even more money. You see where this is going.;)

jeff
 
klamsoss said:
I am in almost exactly the same boat. I have about $400 into a Thorens TD-165 with the original arm, and I used a AT VM540ML on it for a while. Over the past 2 years since I got the Thorens and got it working properly, I have had the opportunity to buy several high quality competitors including a Linn LP-12. In the end, each time I have doubled down on the Thorens. I put Blue Jean cables on it as captive and found they were a good upgrade from the original cables (which were in admittedly POOR condition). I also damped a few parts of the plinth, polished the spindle bearing nicely with a little home-brew technique, got a new belt, and eventually spent the dough to put a Denon DL-103 on it and employ a quality step-up. THAT was well worth it.

As long as your 165 has the original arm, I would say save your money and get a DL-103 and a nice step-up/headamp and see how you like that. You may be very pleasantly surprised, and in the worst case, you'll have some easily re-sellable equipment (the cartridge and step-up) vs having to deal with the possibility (probability) of taking a loss because full turntables are difficult and potentially dangerous to ship when sold on the used market.
Click to expand...

Get a high mass arm for that DL-103, you'll enjoy it so much more as it was designed to be used. And please note I don't knock it, nor a Thorens TD-165. But I'd stick to a Denon DL-301 on that stock arm. It's a much better match.
 
timmy.timmy said:
Just because it is. The AR 'XA' commercial success captured the '3' points suspended (sub) chassis design to inspire the likes of Thorens with the TD150 by 1965. The whole design was very much the same with merely few changes. As you say the 3 points design goes way before that. Even with coupled tonearm & platter. Anyway by the time the first Linn was out all could see that the LP12 was basically a 'blue print' of the TD150, later of the TD160 and finally even of the single point bearing. That also became the pinacle of the pathetic court ruling the schism of both founders of the Linn now then rivals in debacle...

For the rest I don't debate the preference of anyone for their Linn or their Thorens. And I know that the craft involved at Linn's was more meticulous and gear 'heavy'. The Thorens "industrial" approach evidently impaired the build finish of their turntables. But to what point... And on the other hand as a bigger group with greater means to allow them to be "inovative" on researches Thorens remained 'ahead'. And not all their 'upgrades" are to be regarded as costs production costs savings. The TP tonearms don't look or feel sexy but their 'sonic signature' is surprrinsingly good for their money's worth I have found.

Not a touch for the Basik tonearm for me. Where the basic (cheap even) Thorens's armboard may be most unsophisticated but they serve their purpose very well. If to upgrade them for something else can prove an improvement in playback it's really not always the case. Even less than often IME. This should really depends on the tonearm/cart as well. And I am a "daring" tweaker not affraid to totally alter the original sonic charasteristics of any components in the phono chain if it suits my ears better... Both the Thorens just like the Linn's are very evolutive turntables whose limits knows only few boundaries.
Click to expand...

History:

Stromberg-Carlson PerfecTempo was first 3 point suspended belt drive turntable, which inspired Edgar Villchur of AR to improve on it, and then came the Thorens TD-150, TD-160, and TD-165, which lead to the Ariston Audio, which led to the Linn LP-12. Each improved in some way on the other but use the basic core design principle, each upgraded.
 
Oh yeah - lapse of memory - it was Stromberg Carlson not Fairchild. I believe that Mitch Cotter was involved with both the Stromberg Carlson and the AR.
 
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