Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
This is an obsession for me. I never get tired of experimenting with all the different combinations of equipment. It's partly why I like tubes and cables so much.
Thoughts on the high end....
- Thread starter Bigerik
- Start date
This is an obsession for me. I never get tired of experimenting with all the different combinations of equipment. It's partly why I like tubes and cables so much.
tonight was a typical stereo evening (as in, night off from girlfriend):
My main system has had 3 different tuners in it tonight. The Kenwood that is my go-to tuner, and a Yamaha T-1 and Sherwood S-2300 that I just picked up within the past week but haven't had time to play with. I played the same station on each, and each tuner brought something different to the table, and I don't like one more than the other...and they all sounded high end to me.
After that, I cleaned the A-1 integrated amp that came with the T-1 and fired it up in the bedroom system. Holy crap! What a beautiful sound. Who would give this to a thrift store? I then proceeded to listen to several CDs and LPs on it, that I've heard a hundred times...just not on the A-1/Rega Jura combination. See, it's not about high end/low end/ or even bang for the buck around here. It's about enjoyment. I'd have been happy if I'd paid 10x what I paid for this little system, or if it was brand new or 30 years old instead of some combination of 6 year old speakers and almost 30 year old amplifier.
High-end could give me the same enjoyment, but I'd have to spend a lot of money, as I'd want one of everything to play with.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Since This Thread Has Wandered Off Course
Since this thread has taken a new tack, I will add in my experiences. I have been a long time tube head, but these days I own a solid state system. This is my first venture into SS since I was 20 years old or so.
My system consists of:
Jeff Rowland Consummate pre-amp
Jeff Rowland Model 5 amplifier
Audio Magic Kukama DAC
Bolder Cable Company modified Squeezebox w Ultimate IV power supply & Nirvana regulator option
JVC XL-Z1050TN CDP used as a back up transport
Nikko Gamma 1 tuner
Audio Magic Mini-Reference power conditioner
Audio Magic Illusion 4D speaker wire, interconnects, and digital cable
Audio Magic Extreme series power cords
A pair of AV 123 racks
Speakers are in a bit of a flux. I have a pair of Audio Nirvana Super 12 drivers with Cain & Cain built cabinets. Also have a pair of Mordaunt Short Performance 880 speakers. Am waiting for a pair of Eminent Technology LFT 8B speakers.
The best sound I have achieved is with a pair of Bamberg Audio Series 5 speakers which I had in the house for a few weeks. Beautiful speakers, and worth every penny of their 6K asking price. The system was void of the typical colorations and tonal inaccuracies that NOTHING stood between me and the music. Actually, everything else sounds second rate in comparison, even these fine MS 880 speakers. I hope the LFT 8B can accomplish the same thing, at a price that I can afford. But the point is that the tonal balance flaws, the artifical warmth, and lack of detail all compromise the music for me. I want my system to add nothing, and present all the detail of the recording. When it can do this, then I can experience the music.
Regards
Mister Pig
Since this thread has taken a new tack, I will add in my experiences. I have been a long time tube head, but these days I own a solid state system. This is my first venture into SS since I was 20 years old or so.
My system consists of:
Jeff Rowland Consummate pre-amp
Jeff Rowland Model 5 amplifier
Audio Magic Kukama DAC
Bolder Cable Company modified Squeezebox w Ultimate IV power supply & Nirvana regulator option
JVC XL-Z1050TN CDP used as a back up transport
Nikko Gamma 1 tuner
Audio Magic Mini-Reference power conditioner
Audio Magic Illusion 4D speaker wire, interconnects, and digital cable
Audio Magic Extreme series power cords
A pair of AV 123 racks
Speakers are in a bit of a flux. I have a pair of Audio Nirvana Super 12 drivers with Cain & Cain built cabinets. Also have a pair of Mordaunt Short Performance 880 speakers. Am waiting for a pair of Eminent Technology LFT 8B speakers.
The best sound I have achieved is with a pair of Bamberg Audio Series 5 speakers which I had in the house for a few weeks. Beautiful speakers, and worth every penny of their 6K asking price. The system was void of the typical colorations and tonal inaccuracies that NOTHING stood between me and the music. Actually, everything else sounds second rate in comparison, even these fine MS 880 speakers. I hope the LFT 8B can accomplish the same thing, at a price that I can afford. But the point is that the tonal balance flaws, the artifical warmth, and lack of detail all compromise the music for me. I want my system to add nothing, and present all the detail of the recording. When it can do this, then I can experience the music.
Regards
Mister Pig
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
I like the night-off-from-girlfriend-music-session comment, that's exactly what I do when mine works late. Not that I don't want her around, but she's simply not going to sit through a 5 hour record listening session with me, and my main system also happens to amplify the TV sound.
I agree with the sentiment of your entire post above. It's about enjoyment, and, for some, like you and me, it's about choices and experimentation. Once you get the ball rolling it is hard to stop; I've been so intrigued by what cables have done for my systems that I keep going up and up the ladder, and the rungs I'm on now are very expensive.
Erik, are you going to move on to something else to resolve this situation? Or perhaps just parts of the system should go? I'm lucky in that almost everything I've gotten so far has pleased me. But then again, I think I have pretty specific tastes and interests in audio equipment, so factor in the budget and it's not hard for me to narrow it down to, say, three or four phono preamps that I'm sure would work. In any case I got really lucky with the Wright 200C.
thedelihaus
Nocturnal transmissions
I've been fortunate so far that I've progressed, for the most part, in the right direction.
The first onset of doubt? Buying Thiels.
The Thiels forced my hand into buying a better-matched amplification. Where my Denon POAs were just perfect with the likes of my a/d/s/ L1230s and A200s and DCMs, they were a poor match for my Thiels. I chased down DACs first, then amplification, to initially only match what the a/d/s/DCM/BA a200 and Denon pairing could do. But once synergy hit, the Thiels and my new amps, the B&Ks, brought me up a whole new level, and worth every effort and dollar I spent.
Cabling was a big wrestle for me. I bought mine used and for nickels on the dollar- the only way I felt I could justify it. My thought was that initial investment may return an improvement, but one nominal for cash outlay. I still feel this, but will say I'm glad I upgraded to boutique cables over standard cables- I bought smart, I bought used, and I indeed feel I got an improvement, if only nominal. Still, it was an improvement, for well under $20, maybe under $15 a cable if one looked at the median price.
I picked up a TT with an SME 3009 arm a bit ago, and have yet to repair it. This will be an interesting test- will it trounce my other tables? And will the sound be enough of an improvement that the loss of the semi-auto and auto features I love about the other tables be a sacrifice worthy of my inconvenience?
Lots of time and effort and more money than planned has me arriving at audio nirvana.
But I've been fortunate the choices made have been beneficial, albeit at times a tad pricier than planned.
Dave,
I'm starting with speakers. The true epiphany of this was that I learned HOW I was listening to gear when I was trying it out was wrong. Thats the one area where the high end magazines have lead us astray - With the vast majority of writers, when they talk about the equipment, even in relation to the music they are testing on it, the talk of things like detail and air and imaging and soundstaging, etc. These can all be nice things to have, but they really are un-important to the musical experience.
The flip side of this is once the high end audio mags started writing reviews based on this kind of thinking, the high end manufacturers started producing gear to do well under this kind of test. And so it goes....
So now, I am just having fun with my gear. It feels like the pressure is off. Good times!
I've listened closely to two 'high end' speakers lately. One pair was the Definitive Tech. Mythos which has gotten a lot of praise lately in the magazines. I was left impressed but not for the price, and they didn't really sound musical...they seemed to do a lot of things right, but all those things didn't seem to come together in a uniform sound. I noticed the air and soundstage and deepness of the bass, and each was impressive in it's own right, but as a whole they sounded kind of fake.
I also heard a pair of Dali speakers yesterday. They were one of the most musical, beautiful set of speakers I have ever heard. They were also being driven by Cary equipment, while the Mythos were being driven by some sort of expensive HT receiver. So...who knows? It's really hard to tell based on magazine reviews or even listening to things in store. But it's too expensive to take a gamble on.
The Dali speakers were works of art in both sound and look, but at close to $5000, they should be. Unfortunately, I don't think all $5000 speakers live up to both or even one of those parameters. If someone were to give me a pair of the Dalis though, I think I could, you know, live with them...haha.
I also heard a pair of Dali speakers yesterday. They were one of the most musical, beautiful set of speakers I have ever heard. They were also being driven by Cary equipment, while the Mythos were being driven by some sort of expensive HT receiver. So...who knows? It's really hard to tell based on magazine reviews or even listening to things in store. But it's too expensive to take a gamble on.
The Dali speakers were works of art in both sound and look, but at close to $5000, they should be. Unfortunately, I don't think all $5000 speakers live up to both or even one of those parameters. If someone were to give me a pair of the Dalis though, I think I could, you know, live with them...haha.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
I'm afraid I can't agree. I think some of the more revealing cables dissect the music too much for my liking. They sound too analytical and don't appear to designed by folks who listen to music as a whole. More by the folks who are more interested in hearing the spittle on a trumpeters lips than the piece as a whole. Nothing against folks who are detail oriented, however it's just not my bag. More than any other cable brand van den Hul appears to be right up my alley. Analysis Plus and Nordost are at the other end of the scale. Looking for detail I'd look at the latter 2 brands.
Jupiter1610
Active Member
I really do feel that you have to live with a piece before passing judgment. One week minimum of regular listening. You just have to hear the equipment with your own associated gear, in your own room, and with your own music.
Ausjoe
Super Member
Someone mentioned synergy. If a line of components is well designed and still up to spec (replace those caps you've been meaning to!) then that seems to be the key.
Unfortunately buying used can make that difficult with separates. Try to keep your eyes peeled for full systems and you'll be happier in the long run.
Unfortunately buying used can make that difficult with separates. Try to keep your eyes peeled for full systems and you'll be happier in the long run.
I think I disagree on this one. While it is true that sometimes preamp/power amp combos by the same manufacturer work well together, there are exceptions. My Marantz 250 power amp in the seventies sounded much better when I replaced the 3300 preamp with a H/K Citation 17s, it took my system to another level. Replaced the Marantz 250 with a McIntosh 2100 and it took it to another level still. There is magic to be found in the right combos. My Acurus L10/A200 combo is a real good match, but a test drive of a Juicy Music Preamp was a definate improvement over the L10, and will probably replace it as funding allows.
The furthur you go in this hobby, the less your premise holds true. IMHO
Regards,
Jim
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Personally I Can't Agree With the Seperation of "Musical" and Lack of Detail
While it does appear that I am in a minority, I do not see a seperation of music and detail. Music,and the sounds generated by instruments or vocals contain the subtlest shades of detail. Otherwise how could one distinguish the changes of sound fromdifferent instrument manufacturers? A Chang won't sound like a Steinway, or a Baldwin, or Yamaha. Different recording venues are going to subtley alter the music played/recorded in it. A system needs to resolve this fine detail. This ability needs to be present in a system for it to be faithful to the recording. I have read posts where people that a systems "musicality" will transcend the recording process, and elevate the event to closer to live music. It seems to me that a stereo system can at best be faithful to the recording, and present all of the information there.
Now a stereo system can alter the information, and do so in a consistent way. While this may be pleasing to the ear, I cannot see it as being "musical" since the music is really only the information contained in the recording. The "emotional content" of a song is the subtle shadings of the vocals and instruments, nothing more. However certain tonal balance arrangements, even distortions(such as 2nd order harmonics) are pleasing to the ear. But lets not confuse them with being a transcendent event of audio reproduction.
In my mind the first priority of an audio system is :
1. tonal accuracy
2. phase coherence
3. detail retrevial
all of which results in the other good things we like about a stereo system. Such as solid imaging, large soundstages, and low listening fatigue.
Certain attributes can give the impression high resolution. Such as accentuated high frequencies, or limited bass response(which gives the impression of more mid and high detail) or even phase issues. But in reality, these system paramaters are a charade, and create a system that is difficult to listen to.
Just my 2 cents mind you. YMMV.
Regards
Mister Pig
While it does appear that I am in a minority, I do not see a seperation of music and detail. Music,and the sounds generated by instruments or vocals contain the subtlest shades of detail. Otherwise how could one distinguish the changes of sound fromdifferent instrument manufacturers? A Chang won't sound like a Steinway, or a Baldwin, or Yamaha. Different recording venues are going to subtley alter the music played/recorded in it. A system needs to resolve this fine detail. This ability needs to be present in a system for it to be faithful to the recording. I have read posts where people that a systems "musicality" will transcend the recording process, and elevate the event to closer to live music. It seems to me that a stereo system can at best be faithful to the recording, and present all of the information there.
Now a stereo system can alter the information, and do so in a consistent way. While this may be pleasing to the ear, I cannot see it as being "musical" since the music is really only the information contained in the recording. The "emotional content" of a song is the subtle shadings of the vocals and instruments, nothing more. However certain tonal balance arrangements, even distortions(such as 2nd order harmonics) are pleasing to the ear. But lets not confuse them with being a transcendent event of audio reproduction.
In my mind the first priority of an audio system is :
1. tonal accuracy
2. phase coherence
3. detail retrevial
all of which results in the other good things we like about a stereo system. Such as solid imaging, large soundstages, and low listening fatigue.
Certain attributes can give the impression high resolution. Such as accentuated high frequencies, or limited bass response(which gives the impression of more mid and high detail) or even phase issues. But in reality, these system paramaters are a charade, and create a system that is difficult to listen to.
Just my 2 cents mind you. YMMV.
Regards
Mister Pig
matel
Super Member
Wow still goin strong.. Your point of view is working on me Mr. P . I made a couple of adjustments in favor of detail over warmth and things are clearer and richer sounding. Thank you.
In fooling with power cords recently my attention was drawn to the importance to me of how the musicians are portrayed 'on stage' . If they sound like they are playing in each others presence or not struck me as a key factor in a 'musical' performance.
Here it sounds like my living room floor continues another 15 ft behind the speakers and the musicians are hanging out on stools or standing around making music together right there.
In fooling with power cords recently my attention was drawn to the importance to me of how the musicians are portrayed 'on stage' . If they sound like they are playing in each others presence or not struck me as a key factor in a 'musical' performance.
Here it sounds like my living room floor continues another 15 ft behind the speakers and the musicians are hanging out on stools or standing around making music together right there.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Hi Matel,
Hey I am just relaying my experiences, and what makes sense to me audio wise. You have to make up your own mind, based on your own experiences. I find that I the more colorations I remove from my system, that I experience more of the music.
I may have mentioned this before, but its worth repeating. One speaker designer I know stated his position quite eloquently, and I agree with his thoughts wholeheartedly.
"Anything that is added to the music is distortion. Anything subtracted is veiling." Either change is undesirable.
Building a system that is either warm or analytical is pretty easy to do. Putting together one that approaches neutral is difficult, and expensive. Really expensive when you get close to the mark. But once I experience a component that is neutral, then it gets real hard to live with anything else that strays from the mark.
Regards
Mister Pig
dogscanskate
Super Member
"Anything subtracted is veiling" ?????
Tell me who this designer is so I can avoid his products. When you lift a veil off something, you should get a "clearer" picture. If you subtract the highs from the content, you are not veiling the performance, you're simply deleting information and nothing can bring it back in the chain. Whereas my understanding of "veiling" or "lifting a veil off" is that of ridding the musical program from distortion, noise and colorations that can mask detail and mar the reproduction. "Veiling" is simply an addition of sonic components that mask the music and it is definitely not a subtraction.
Tell me who this designer is so I can avoid his products. When you lift a veil off something, you should get a "clearer" picture. If you subtract the highs from the content, you are not veiling the performance, you're simply deleting information and nothing can bring it back in the chain. Whereas my understanding of "veiling" or "lifting a veil off" is that of ridding the musical program from distortion, noise and colorations that can mask detail and mar the reproduction. "Veiling" is simply an addition of sonic components that mask the music and it is definitely not a subtraction.
dnewma04
The Healer
We often criticize Bose on these and other boards, but they are a company that has essentially embraced the idea that accuracy isn't what people want, they want a sound that pleases most people who hear it, audiophiles be damned. They hit the mark, a huge majority of the general public likes the bose sound, and even prefers it to more accurate offerings. Of course, there is a great deal of marketing out there that makes people think what they are hearing is an accurate portrayal of real music. We know better, but most don't.
The room, as some have pointed out, is critical. The last thing I want to do is listen in an anechoic chamber unless I want to bore myself out of my mind. Anybody who has had the displeasure of listening to a heavily damped room, or (quasi-) anechoic chamber knows that it's positively terrible sounding. Room acoustics, unlike some have suggested, are pretty darn well understood by some. The example of Geddes' ideas or Linkwitz's are good ones. Both use methods of directivity (one by use of waveguides and one by use of dipole speakers) to reduce room issues to some degree. Most of our rooms act quite similarly from ~300hz on up. It's the lower freq where wavelengths of freqs approach or exceed room dimensions where things get chaotic and a little more difficult to predict.
As far as the musical vs analytical issue, I don't have a whole lot to add to what has already been said. I'm certainly the type that leans towards tonally accurate equipment over things like speakers that image well, or have a deep soundstage, etc. I rarely get a chance to sit in a sweetspot and listen, I'm usually dancing like a fool with my daughter to some awful music more often than sitting in place with my eyes closed sipping on some sort of alcoholic nectar. That said, I sort of know where Erik and others are coming from. As you move upscale in equipment, gear can become less enjoyable because it is often times more likely that your equipment will begin to reveal problems with the source that will drive you batty.
I get the impression as I have moved upscale in my turntable/analog gear, my perceptions of analogs weaknesses seem to get re-enforced rather than dispelled. Where I couldn't readily identify dynamic range issues with LPs in the past, with the current setup, they are becoming more clear. I'm not sure that I've made the right choices. I'm also not sure that I haven't made the right choices. I'm in a bit of a limbo and can't decide which direction I want to take from here.
I'm also not at all surprised by dogscanskate offing the proacs in favor of dynaco's. There is something very "right" going on with A25s. There are dozens of better speakers out there, but I could be quite content if I were "stuck" with A25s.
Part of my passion for the hobby stems from gear, but in the process, I have become increasingly more appreciative of the music to the point where it is the driver now, not the gear. I think once you reach a certain level of satisfaction with the gear, then you just focus on other areas which is where I am at. It also has allowed me to try to go back to my roots as a DIYer. I like to build speakers, and having some references to compare to is important for me. Right now, I am in the process of building a CDP, a turntable, a pair of speakers, 2 amps, modding a hagerman, and a few others things. My goals are usually to start with measurements to get very close and tweak a little from there. The element of building things give me more satisfaction, albeit psychological, than buying most things.
Enough rambling. I'm boring the crap out of myself. I feel bad for you bastards who had to read that BS.
The room, as some have pointed out, is critical. The last thing I want to do is listen in an anechoic chamber unless I want to bore myself out of my mind. Anybody who has had the displeasure of listening to a heavily damped room, or (quasi-) anechoic chamber knows that it's positively terrible sounding. Room acoustics, unlike some have suggested, are pretty darn well understood by some. The example of Geddes' ideas or Linkwitz's are good ones. Both use methods of directivity (one by use of waveguides and one by use of dipole speakers) to reduce room issues to some degree. Most of our rooms act quite similarly from ~300hz on up. It's the lower freq where wavelengths of freqs approach or exceed room dimensions where things get chaotic and a little more difficult to predict.
As far as the musical vs analytical issue, I don't have a whole lot to add to what has already been said. I'm certainly the type that leans towards tonally accurate equipment over things like speakers that image well, or have a deep soundstage, etc. I rarely get a chance to sit in a sweetspot and listen, I'm usually dancing like a fool with my daughter to some awful music more often than sitting in place with my eyes closed sipping on some sort of alcoholic nectar. That said, I sort of know where Erik and others are coming from. As you move upscale in equipment, gear can become less enjoyable because it is often times more likely that your equipment will begin to reveal problems with the source that will drive you batty.
I get the impression as I have moved upscale in my turntable/analog gear, my perceptions of analogs weaknesses seem to get re-enforced rather than dispelled. Where I couldn't readily identify dynamic range issues with LPs in the past, with the current setup, they are becoming more clear. I'm not sure that I've made the right choices. I'm also not sure that I haven't made the right choices. I'm in a bit of a limbo and can't decide which direction I want to take from here.
I'm also not at all surprised by dogscanskate offing the proacs in favor of dynaco's. There is something very "right" going on with A25s. There are dozens of better speakers out there, but I could be quite content if I were "stuck" with A25s.
Part of my passion for the hobby stems from gear, but in the process, I have become increasingly more appreciative of the music to the point where it is the driver now, not the gear. I think once you reach a certain level of satisfaction with the gear, then you just focus on other areas which is where I am at. It also has allowed me to try to go back to my roots as a DIYer. I like to build speakers, and having some references to compare to is important for me. Right now, I am in the process of building a CDP, a turntable, a pair of speakers, 2 amps, modding a hagerman, and a few others things. My goals are usually to start with measurements to get very close and tweak a little from there. The element of building things give me more satisfaction, albeit psychological, than buying most things.
Enough rambling. I'm boring the crap out of myself. I feel bad for you bastards who had to read that BS.
stuartk
Super Member
On the other hand, when I used to live out in the country, I used to take my stereo outside sometimes when the weather was nice.
It was in the middle of a one acre backyard surrounded by woods. I was probably 75-80 feet away from the house itself. The speakers were aimed away from the house.
I always found it to be very pleasant listening out there, and the sound seemed very "pure." Deep bass was lacking, but everything else sounded good.
There may have been some reflections from the lawn, but I would think no more than you'd get out of well-padded carpet, and possibly less.
I also knew some people right after high school that practically lived in their screened-in porch during the summer. They had a stereo out there and I also remember this as sounding quite good.
I've never listened to a stereo system in a full anechoic chamber, so I can't comment on that.
I've seen comments from other people about how bad overly damped rooms sound, and I wonder at what point they become too well-damped? Is a heavily-damped large room more bearable than a small one? Is heavy damping of some frequencies more tolerable than others?
Does it depend upon the recording(s) listened to? How about the design of the speakers?
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
I'm no expert on this subject, but I imagine, like many other things, that it's about finding a "sweet spot" for the particular room in question. I recently added just two 2' by 2' Auralex panels to my roughly 8' by 11' listening room and there was a moderate improvement in the sound, specifically the higher frequencies are much more tolerable at louder volumes. More is needed. But I'm sure too much would screw things up. I guess this is why the companies who sell these things offer free consultations, aside from the fact that they'll suggest you buy a lot of their product.
dividebytube
Well-Known Member
I've recently readjusted my musical/stereo priorities. I'm shedding lots of my tube collection - actually just building it for the (DIY) amplifiers I have on hand. I'm now using a solid-state preamp (DIY Bride of Zen) and plan to eventually upgrade this to something even more upscale. I just want to listen to music and enjoy the sound I get out of the stereo - not the other way around 