To Upgrade with new Stylus: Grado Red or Shure M91ED?

[davstev]

I have awakened two cartridges as options for my new tonearm on a new TT: a Grado Red, and a Shure M91ED from the early 1970's.

The Grado sounds fine even good in its own way, but the Shure just sounds a little more sorted out to me- better soundstage, nicer tones all around. Well-balanced and defined. I am really liking the Shure.

I've read on AK several threads describing stylus upgrades to both of these cartridges.

• Many are touting the virtues of a Grado Red (or others from the Prestige Series) with a Grado 8MZ stylus ($100).
  
• Other threads are thrilled by the Shure M91ed with a JICO SAS replacement stylus ($130).

Basically, I am looking for it all- nice soundstage, nice tones. I like open highs, solid mids and nice lows. I like detail, presence and musicality.

Even though I am more into the Shure at this particular moment, new stylus for the Grado could reinvent it and make it a major challenger.

Should you have any, what are your thoughts on this? Anyone have experience with these that you could share?

thanks everbody!
David

 

[Treker]

Personally, I am listening to a Shure M91Ed with JICO SAS stylus right now, and I love it. It has definitely become my main cartridge and the one that spends the most time plugged into the end of my tonearm.

I have no experience with Grado carts of any sort, so unfortunately I can't offer you a side by side comparison. Someone else will have to chime on on that one.

 

[Isotonic]

Grado Cartridges at this level have a special sound, but it doesn't work for everyone. I think they tend to work best with systems that are a bit strident, toning them down. Depending in your system, the M91 may be a safer bet. With the SAS it is the hands down winner. It is also a mellow cartridge, but more versatile than the Grado in my estimation.

 

[beatcomber]

The Grado sounds fine even good in its own way, but the Shure just sounds a little more sorted out to me- better soundstage, nicer tones all around. Well-balanced and defined. I am really liking the Shure.

A Grado with an 8MZ stylus will beat a M91ED w/JICO SAS for imaging and realism, but only on an arm that makes it happy. Otherwise it will sound dull and congested. What table are you using?

With the SAS it is the hands down winner. It is also a mellow cartridge, but more versatile than the Grado in my estimation.

I disagree. I have both a Grado Gold 1/8MZ and a Shure M91ED/SAS, and the Grado easily bests the Shure. The Shure is no slouch, in fact it was my favorite for a long time, but the Grado has extra depth (on an optimized arm).

 

[marcmorin]

Basically, I am looking for it all- nice soundstage, nice tones. I like open highs, solid mids and nice lows. I like detail, presence and musicality.

Even though I am more into the Shure at this particular moment, new stylus for the Grado could reinvent it and make it a major challenger.

Should you have any, what are your thoughts on this? Anyone have experience with these that you could share?

thanks everbody!
David

As Beatcomber mentioned you need to fill us in more with what arm you'll be using. If you're currently playing both the M91 and Grado in the current arm what is the Grado NOT doing correctly in its current state? How do you have the current arm set up in tracking force, antiskate, etc?
I don't own an SAS stylus for any of my Shure carts, I do own some NOS and or very low hour aftermarket "HE" styli for my M75, M91, M95, and I sold off my V15-V. I do like the overall tone/timbre of th Shure carts, but they won't extract the information from the vinyl like my Grado's will. Having said that, I only own two versions of styli for my various Gardos considered below the level of 8MZ. The price difference between the M91SAS puts you between the price of the 8MZ stylus and the MCZ stylus. Although the MCZ stylus in the hi-out Red body will require a different input load at the phono section to what your system works best at.

 

[Isotonic]

A Grado with an 8MZ stylus will beat a M91ED w/JICO SAS for imaging and realism, but only on an arm that makes it happy. Otherwise it will sound dull and congested. What table are you using?



I disagree. I have both a Grado Gold 1/8MZ and a Shure M91ED/SAS, and the Grado easily bests the Shure. The Shure is no slouch, in fact it was my favorite for a long time, but the Grado has extra depth (on an optimized arm).

That's interesting. What arm type do you look for to match with a Grado? What has worked for you? I have a red that I am considering the 8MZ for.

 

[davstev]

Grado Cartridges at this level have a special sound, but it doesn't work for everyone. I think they tend to work best with systems that are a bit strident, toning them down. Depending in your system, the M91 may be a safer bet. With the SAS it is the hands down winner. It is also a mellow cartridge, but more versatile than the Grado in my estimation.

I would agree with you. My system could be characterized as warm- I am running through a recapped Marantz 2270, Kenwood KD-550 turntable with Stock tonearm, Cambridge Audio P640 phono preamp and B&W DM601 S3 Speakers. I could use a little help in the higher frequencies, but I don't want to lose the warm, full-bodied mids and lower end. Like I said- I want it all!

 

[davstev]

A Grado with an 8MZ stylus will beat a M91ED w/JICO SAS for imaging and realism, but only on an arm that makes it happy. Otherwise it will sound dull and congested. What table are you using?

I am using a Kenwood KD550 with a stock tonearm. Having just picked up this TT recently, I am learning about cartridge compliance.

Perhaps the Grado is not ideal with this arm (which has 14g effective mass). However, it's not that it sounds truly bad (as it did with high-compliance cart that I have, which sounded simply awful despite being a good cartridge). The Grado Red just sounds a bit lacking in dimension. Mediocre separation of sounds, and neither the high or low end sound especially great. A bit blah, compared to the Shure M91ed, which sounds pretty awesome. Hoping a JICO SAS might open the Shure up a bit, provide a touch more clarity that it is lacking. If so, it might just be perfect. It's really a pretty solid cartridge, isn't it? $20 well spent!

 

[davstev]

A Grado with an 8MZ stylus will beat a M91ED w/JICO SAS for imaging and realism, but only on an arm that makes it happy. Otherwise it will sound dull and congested. /QUOTE]

..."a bit Dull and congested". A perfect description for the Grado on my tonearm. I suppose an 8MZ cartridge would alleviate the dull and congested sound a bit, but I would still be competing with the fact that it is not ideally paired with that arm, as seems might be the case. So, it would never reach full potential.

I am concluding that both stylus replacements would improve both cartridges respectively, but, better to improve the one that is already sounding better than rely on a miracle improvement by new stylus from the one that isn't sounding as hot.

-David

 

[marcmorin]

A Grado with an 8MZ stylus will beat a M91ED w/JICO SAS for imaging and realism, but only on an arm that makes it happy. Otherwise it will sound dull and congested. What table are you using?

I am using a Kenwood KD550 with a stock tonearm. Having just picked up this TT recently, I am learning about cartridge compliance.

Perhaps the Grado is not ideal with this arm (which has 14g effective mass). However, it's not that it sounds truly bad (as it did with high-compliance cart that I have, which sounded simply awful despite being a good cartridge). The Grado Red just sounds a bit lacking in dimension. Mediocre separation of sounds, and neither the high or low end sound especially great. A bit blah, compared to the Shure M91ed, which sounds pretty awesome. Hoping a JICO SAS might open the Shure up a bit, provide a touch more clarity that it is lacking. If so, it might just be perfect. It's really a pretty solid cartridge, isn't it? $20 well spent!

I owned a KD 500 with a mayware arm that I ran various Grado Signatures of the day (late 70's through mid 80's) The stock arm on the 550 is probably a bit on the heavy side for the Grado. Also on the KD500 I had to remove the transformer from the table to a seperate isolated box because the Signatures were picking up the vibration from the transformer. The differences you list between the Shure and Grado though might be something else than the arm though, as the M91 suspension is a little higher compliance than the Red. Have you a chance to check arm/cart resonate levels? I'm guessing the Grado would come in around 8-9 hz in that arm, and the Shure around 6-8 hz.

 

[Kahoona]

I have always loved the M91ED. It has been around forever. I like it with a Shibata Stylus (also around forever and still going). I just enjoy the all around sound quality. I might be nervous about one that old though but as long as it rides at the correct height and does not sag that is my Fav.

 

[davstev]

I owned a KD 500 with a mayware arm that I ran various Grado Signatures of the day (late 70's through mid 80's) The stock arm on the 550 is probably a bit on the heavy side for the Grado. Also on the KD500 I had to remove the transformer from the table to a seperate isolated box because the Signatures were picking up the vibration from the transformer. The differences you list between the Shure and Grado though might be something else than the arm though, as the M91 suspension is a little higher compliance than the Red. Have you a chance to check arm/cart resonate levels? I'm guessing the Grado would come in around 8-9 hz in that arm, and the Shure around 6-8 hz.

I will give it a go with the Vinyl Engine cartridge compliance chart. Still learning about compliance issues- a tad complex, but not out of reach...

Is there a general rule about what to aim for? Is either 8-9 hz or 6-8 hz preferable?

 

[marcmorin]

I will give it a go with the Vinyl Engine cartridge compliance chart. Still learning about compliance issues- a tad complex, but not out of reach...

Is there a general rule about what to aim for? Is either 8-9 hz or 6-8 hz preferable?

Actually 10hz is the "magic number" most people agree on. How close you can get to that the better IMO.

 

[beatcomber]

It's worth mentioning that Grados and JICO SAS prefer little to no antiskating. I keep it at around .75g on my KAB fluid dampened SL-1200MK2, and my AR-TX of course has no AS adjustment.

 

[Multiplex]

I've kind of been wondering the same thing myself. I have an old gold-body Grado F1+, and it's original stylus is about ready to take a dirt nap. I have a handful of Shure bodies to choose from as well, such as M75, M91/93, M95, and M97xE. I've been trying to decide which is a better investment, the Jico SAS for Shure or the Grado 8MZ.

Now it appears as though the SAS has a more sophisticated cantilever, but I'm not exactly sure what the Grado has. I am assuming tubular aluminum? Also, I've never really found a satifactory answer about what kind of tip the 8MZ has. Is it elliptical? "Hyperelliptical"? Line contact? And also, there seems to be some dispute regarding whether it is nude, or not. But of course, sound quality is more important than specs...

Also worthy of mention... I've heard Grado does a good job supporting their products. Supposedly, you can actually call and talk to a human being. On the other hand, I've heard of several premature failures with Jicos, and they offer little to no support. Anyone have any firsthand experience?

 

[marcmorin]

I've kind of been wondering the same thing myself. I have an old gold-body Grado F1+, and it's original stylus is about ready to take a dirt nap. I have a handful of Shure bodies to choose from as well, such as M75, M91/93, M95, and M97xE. I've been trying to decide which is a better investment, the Jico SAS for Shure or the Grado 8MZ.

Now it appears as though the SAS has a more sophisticated cantilever, but I'm not exactly sure what the Grado has. I am assuming tubular aluminum? Also, I've never really found a satifactory answer about what kind of tip the 8MZ has. Is it elliptical? "Hyperelliptical"? Line contact? And also, there seems to be some dispute regarding whether it is nude, or not. But of course, sound quality is more important than specs...

Also worthy of mention... I've heard Grado does a good job supporting their products. Supposedly, you can actually call and talk to a human being. On the other hand, I've heard of several premature failures with Jicos, and they offer little to no support. Anyone have any firsthand experience?

OK, cantilever: it is a 4 piece aluminum, segmented. Diamond, the re-issue 8MZ stylus is a bonded stone of hyperbolic shape. Grado calls it twin tip. Actuall dimention at contact at vinyl is unknown, un-reported.
Through 250X and 350X of my scope is different than .7 X .2 mil. found on the Gold. A good portion of the time when calling Grado Labs, John Grado answers the phone.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=427641&page=2

Post #23 shows the "twin-tip" cut on a nude mount Grado. imagine half of the round shank now being a bushing......and that's what the 8MZ stylus looks like.

 

[Multiplex]

Ah, thank you, marcmorin. That does help. The segmented cantilever helps to break up resonance, I assume?

How does this Grado perform as far as IGD and sibilance are concerned? These have always been sorts of "weak spots" for Grado.

And... Might as well ask the same question about the SAS.

 

[beatcomber]

Also worthy of mention... I've heard Grado does a good job supporting their products. Supposedly, you can actually call and talk to a human being. On the other hand, I've heard of several premature failures with Jicos, and they offer little to no support. Anyone have any firsthand experience?

I've used Grados on and off for many years and never had one fail.

I've had a couple of JICO's fail, and yes it took some effort and $$ to get a satisfactory resolution.

 

[beatcomber]

How does this Grado perform as far as IGD and sibilance are concerned? These have always been sort of a weak spot for Grado.

And... Might as well ask the same question about the SAS.

I have never had any tracking problems with either the Grado Gold1 or 8MZ styli, or any of my SAS either.

 

[marcmorin]

Ah, thank you, marcmorin. That does help. The segmented cantilever helps to break up resonance, I assume?

How does this Grado perform as far as IGD and sibilance are concerned? These have always been sorts of "weak spots" for Grado.
And... Might as well ask the same question about the SAS.

Rant time: That's the cart telling on something. They can be more "warts and all". My bottom line Grado, and I only have about 5-10 hours total on it, is a MTE+1 (which has morphed into the Black....not saying it is a Black)
is no worse at IGD or sibilance than my(now owned by another) AT12Sa