beatcomber
AK Member
Marc speaks the truth: Grados are extremely fussy, but worth it.
To Upgrade with new Stylus: Grado Red or Shure M91ED?
- Thread starter davstev
- Start date
Marc speaks the truth: Grados are extremely fussy, but worth it.
Multiplex
Appease my earhole.
I have dedicated a lot of time to my setups. I have tried a new Grado Black, some conical Grado, and currently have the F1+ and an MT+. All of the Grados I have tried have a little more inner groove "fizz" in the highs than than the M97xE, M95, AT13E etc. This is the case on both Technics S-arms and Pioneer "Low Mass Graphite" arms.
In defense of the Grado, I have to admit that the F1+ tracks with better top end clarity than my ADC XLM MKIII.
The F1+ is my best sounding Grado right now, and highest end, with it's nude rock on a very thin cantilever. Wonder if the moderm 8MZ will perform better than did the original F1+ when it was "fresher"? I know these are impossible questions to answer on a blog. Guess I'll have to buy it and find out!
In defense of the Grado, I have to admit that the F1+ tracks with better top end clarity than my ADC XLM MKIII.
The F1+ is my best sounding Grado right now, and highest end, with it's nude rock on a very thin cantilever. Wonder if the moderm 8MZ will perform better than did the original F1+ when it was "fresher"? I know these are impossible questions to answer on a blog. Guess I'll have to buy it and find out!
marcmorin
RIP 1953-2020
I have a NOS F1+.......nice stylus. The 8MZ bests it, I have a G1+ with less than 100 hours on it. ( black version, not brown) The 8MZ bests it. At the time your F1+ was the top "company" cart the Signature 2 was the top Joe Grado cart. I have one of those Styli sitting around as well.
a.wayne
Well-Known Member
I'm very satsified with my grados,(blue/green) have used them now for decades and do not find them strident or bright, regardless of speakers used, even so today when run on my ribbon speakers. Contrary to comments on brightness , i find they lack a bit in the details but make up for it with proper sizing and dynamics .
Will the 8mz stylus work on a grado green and is this upgrade superior in sound to a grado Blue...?
Will the 8mz stylus work on a grado green and is this upgrade superior in sound to a grado Blue...?
Hmmm ...
Well lets see: I have 4 Grados and 4 Shures. Guess I've been down this road a few times...
Each of my Grados started with spec's alignment (depending on TT/arm) and then got tweaked a slight bit inward to cure the IGD like "sizzle" as the arm tracked toward the center. Once tweaked with headphones and a fair bit of intense listening they are fine
My wife prefers the Grados to other carts in my collection so there is the matter of taste. I would not be without one set-up correctly for any table I own.
OTOH, I have played with the Shures for may hours and between Catman and myself, we have been in maybe a hundred threads about correct Shure loading. For anyone who wants to experiment with Shure (and the M91 is no slouch, second only to the V15) it all comes down to the phono stage. If you can't get your loading up to about 62K or so, you have to use the JICO SAS to get the top end mechanically. It works, but it is not the best solution.
Not saying there is anything wrong with the approach if it's your only option, but a better way to "wake up" a Shure - changing the resistive loading and dialing the cap will get you far more from any Shure body including the M91, M75, V15, or M97.
Back in the bad old days before I had an adjustable phono stage, I used to criticize Shures as dull and lifeless. Once I had the right gear, they all became very pleasant and workable cartridges.
So the OP's original question is more about where he is goings, than about one cartridge or another. If planning to upgrade his phono stage to something with adjustable loading, put the $$ into the Grado and wait on the Shure until you can hear it sing as it was meant to (Shure used to publish their loading requirements, back when yours was built). Save the SAS investment for now and spend it on the phono stage upgrade :thmbsp:
Well lets see: I have 4 Grados and 4 Shures. Guess I've been down this road a few times...
Each of my Grados started with spec's alignment (depending on TT/arm) and then got tweaked a slight bit inward to cure the IGD like "sizzle" as the arm tracked toward the center. Once tweaked with headphones and a fair bit of intense listening they are fine
My wife prefers the Grados to other carts in my collection so there is the matter of taste. I would not be without one set-up correctly for any table I own.
OTOH, I have played with the Shures for may hours and between Catman and myself, we have been in maybe a hundred threads about correct Shure loading. For anyone who wants to experiment with Shure (and the M91 is no slouch, second only to the V15) it all comes down to the phono stage. If you can't get your loading up to about 62K or so, you have to use the JICO SAS to get the top end mechanically. It works, but it is not the best solution.
Not saying there is anything wrong with the approach if it's your only option, but a better way to "wake up" a Shure - changing the resistive loading and dialing the cap will get you far more from any Shure body including the M91, M75, V15, or M97.
Back in the bad old days before I had an adjustable phono stage, I used to criticize Shures as dull and lifeless. Once I had the right gear, they all became very pleasant and workable cartridges.
So the OP's original question is more about where he is goings, than about one cartridge or another. If planning to upgrade his phono stage to something with adjustable loading, put the $$ into the Grado and wait on the Shure until you can hear it sing as it was meant to (Shure used to publish their loading requirements, back when yours was built). Save the SAS investment for now and spend it on the phono stage upgrade :thmbsp:
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marcmorin
RIP 1953-2020
The 8MZ will fit any current grado cart excluding the wood bodied ones. By current I mean frome FTE+1 (1976-7) through Gold-1. It is a slight through major downgrade on the MCZ, TLZ, XTZ.
so the answer to the first part is yes. The second part, the 8MZ is quite superior to the Blue.
a.wayne
Well-Known Member
Broc , Mark ,
Thanks for the response and i yes i will absolutely agree that this is all system , setup and taste dependent. For me i never liked the sound of shure cartridges ( including the might V15) back when i purchased them in the 70's instead preferring the sound from my stanton, pickering, AT and now Grado.
The Pickering's were very fussy, so after the first one i never looked back at them as it was a pain in the arse to setup and hum, hum ,hum sensitive. The shures were bullet proof , but dull sounding, the Stanton was pretty good but not special , the AT had the best top end and the grado was the best of the bunch with its overall balance and durability ..
So i have given up on changing at this level , I want to stick with the best Grado sound i can get in the 200 range for this table ....
As to EQ settings, you do realize with an eq you can get anything to sound similar. Since these cartridges were designed for standard MM settings changing EQ settings to get a certain sound is not what I'm looking for , as experience has shown eq'ing leads to tonal changes.
But if the load changes work without the negatives , i say go for it .... :thmbsp:
Regards,
Thanks for the response and i yes i will absolutely agree that this is all system , setup and taste dependent. For me i never liked the sound of shure cartridges ( including the might V15) back when i purchased them in the 70's instead preferring the sound from my stanton, pickering, AT and now Grado.
The Pickering's were very fussy, so after the first one i never looked back at them as it was a pain in the arse to setup and hum, hum ,hum sensitive. The shures were bullet proof , but dull sounding, the Stanton was pretty good but not special , the AT had the best top end and the grado was the best of the bunch with its overall balance and durability ..
So i have given up on changing at this level , I want to stick with the best Grado sound i can get in the 200 range for this table ....
As to EQ settings, you do realize with an eq you can get anything to sound similar. Since these cartridges were designed for standard MM settings changing EQ settings to get a certain sound is not what I'm looking for , as experience has shown eq'ing leads to tonal changes.
But if the load changes work without the negatives , i say go for it .... :thmbsp:
Regards,
Well lets see: I have 4 Grados and 4 Shures. Guess I've been down this road a few times...
Each of my Grados started with spec's alignment (depending on TT/arm) and then got tweaked a slight bit inward to cure the IGD like "sizzle" as the arm tracked toward the center. Once tweaked with headphones and a fair bit of intense listening they are fine
My wife prefers the Grados to other carts in my collection so there is the matter of taste. I would not be without one set-up correctly for any table I own.
OTOH, I have played with the Shures for may hours and between Catman and myself, we have been in maybe a hundred threads about correct Shure loading. For anyone who wants to experiment with Shure (and the M91 is no slouch, second only to the V15) it all comes down to the phono stage. If you can't get your loading up to about 62K or so, you have to use the JICO SAS to get the top end mechanically. It works, but it is not the best solution.
Not saying there is anything wrong with the approach if it's your only option, but a better way to "wake up" a Shure - changing the resistive loading and dialing the cap will get you far more from any Shure body including the M91, M75, V15, or M97.
Back in the bad old days before I had an adjustable phono stage, I used to criticize Shures as dull and lifeless. Once I had the right gear, they all became very pleasant and workable cartridges.
So the OP's original question is more about where he is goings, than about one cartridge or another. If planning to upgrade his phono stage to something with adjustable loading, put the $$ into the Grado and wait on the Shure until you can hear it sing as it was meant to (Shure used to publish their loading requirements, back when yours was built). Save the SAS investment for now and spend it on the phono stage upgrade :thmbsp:
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daniel thoma
Active Member
For the OP, the major factor in his system is that 14g tonearm. Both the Shure and Grado carts require a low-mass tonearm, or one that has electric or fluid damping. His best choice would be to find a mid-compliance cartridge, like a Denon DL-110. He'll spend just as much as he would for a new stylus, but it's better for his system.
I'm lucky enough to have a Sony PS-X600, whose Biotracer tonearm is a technical marvel. Both my Shure M91ED and Grado Red1 soundex ellent, better than any conventional aluminum tonearm, and have passed the Hi-Fi News Test LP with flying colors. The Biotracer's damping is excellent for both carts.
I used the Shure this week, it sounded very good, lots of detail and warm, but a little veiled, especially on vocals. I installed the Grado Red today, and only got to play a couple songs, but that Grado bass is there, without being overwhelming, and the vocals are smooth and lifelike. I'll need more time to decide which one I prefer, and whether to geta new stylus for one while saving for a bigger cartridge (like the 10x5).
I'm lucky enough to have a Sony PS-X600, whose Biotracer tonearm is a technical marvel. Both my Shure M91ED and Grado Red1 soundex ellent, better than any conventional aluminum tonearm, and have passed the Hi-Fi News Test LP with flying colors. The Biotracer's damping is excellent for both carts.
I used the Shure this week, it sounded very good, lots of detail and warm, but a little veiled, especially on vocals. I installed the Grado Red today, and only got to play a couple songs, but that Grado bass is there, without being overwhelming, and the vocals are smooth and lifelike. I'll need more time to decide which one I prefer, and whether to geta new stylus for one while saving for a bigger cartridge (like the 10x5).
macman007
Mcintosh..Made In USA
Old thread, and I while since I posted here but...
... I recently found myself needing to swap out my primary cart (Sumiko Blackbird HO) because of damage to a coil wire. In the mean time, I located my old M91ED from 1978, which used to reside on my Technics SL 1300 long since departed, and replaced by a number of departed tables,;.. Luxman PX101, Music Hall MMF-7, and my latest, a KAB'd SL1210 M5 Grandmaster. The KAB 1210 with the Sumiko is a match made in heaven, you would be hard pressed to find issue with the Technics set up correctly, with a singing Blackbird thru a Mc tubed preamp phono stage.
The cost of repairing the Sumiko isn't fitting the budget at the moment, so I brought out the M91ED which of course needed a new stylus to replace the aged Hi Track. I ordered a Jico SAS and waited and waited, since they are discontinuing them. Finally it arrived, after over a month long wait, and all I can say is that after 20 hours and a bit of tweaking this cart sounds unbelievable, better than it did with the factory Hi Track styli, which was no slouch.
I do not remember this cart sounding this good, every bit as good as the V15 III I had for a time on the Luxman. Better than the Grado Black or the Ortofon OM 30, even the Ortofon Blue. This thing is amazing and really gives the Sumiko a run for the money I'm embarrassed to say. Sound stage is wide and deep but not exaggerated, full in your chest Bass, liquid smooth mid range and tight musical well extended treble, which is well controlled and tracks well into the inner most groves with virtually no issue. Sibilance is only present on worn albums, or poor pressings. The Jico SAS/ M91 takes everything you throw at it and responds in kind with fast toe tapping rhythm, pacing and coherence. Background is black and the noise floor on even more worn pressings is impressive. To say that this combo is musical with the 1210 would be a gross understatement.
Break in time was most impressively fast, at 2 hours it was well on the way. By 10 hours it was singing, and at 20 it sounds like its where it wants to be. Interestingly enough the differences at this point are not as dramatic but continuously pleasing and often evolve over an album side. The subtleties are amazing, and this combination is NOTHING short of impressive.
For a sub 400$ price including initial purchase, I am more than pleased and satisfied and feel that the value received for what is spent would be well worth it at 2 times the cost, IMO.
I am currently using the Technics SL1210 Jico SAS M91 ED in the great room listening with the following gear:
Funk Firm Mat
Viborg 280 Gram spindle weight
Marantz 1200 integrated Amplifier:
McIntosh LS320's on Sanus 29" sand filled stands
McIntosh PS 112 running off the Marantz 1200 center RCA pre out- crossed over at 60hz, 40% gain-100% gain on the Marantz center pre out
Teac X1000R
Marantz 10B Tuner
I plan on moving the turntable back in the primary room with mostly Mc gear, maybe..this combo is so addicting I may pick up another turntable for the Mc system and Blackbird, perhaps a VPI Aries 3 which has tickled my fancy as of late...
Thoughts or comments?...
... I recently found myself needing to swap out my primary cart (Sumiko Blackbird HO) because of damage to a coil wire. In the mean time, I located my old M91ED from 1978, which used to reside on my Technics SL 1300 long since departed, and replaced by a number of departed tables,;.. Luxman PX101, Music Hall MMF-7, and my latest, a KAB'd SL1210 M5 Grandmaster. The KAB 1210 with the Sumiko is a match made in heaven, you would be hard pressed to find issue with the Technics set up correctly, with a singing Blackbird thru a Mc tubed preamp phono stage.
The cost of repairing the Sumiko isn't fitting the budget at the moment, so I brought out the M91ED which of course needed a new stylus to replace the aged Hi Track. I ordered a Jico SAS and waited and waited, since they are discontinuing them. Finally it arrived, after over a month long wait, and all I can say is that after 20 hours and a bit of tweaking this cart sounds unbelievable, better than it did with the factory Hi Track styli, which was no slouch.
I do not remember this cart sounding this good, every bit as good as the V15 III I had for a time on the Luxman. Better than the Grado Black or the Ortofon OM 30, even the Ortofon Blue. This thing is amazing and really gives the Sumiko a run for the money I'm embarrassed to say. Sound stage is wide and deep but not exaggerated, full in your chest Bass, liquid smooth mid range and tight musical well extended treble, which is well controlled and tracks well into the inner most groves with virtually no issue. Sibilance is only present on worn albums, or poor pressings. The Jico SAS/ M91 takes everything you throw at it and responds in kind with fast toe tapping rhythm, pacing and coherence. Background is black and the noise floor on even more worn pressings is impressive. To say that this combo is musical with the 1210 would be a gross understatement.
Break in time was most impressively fast, at 2 hours it was well on the way. By 10 hours it was singing, and at 20 it sounds like its where it wants to be. Interestingly enough the differences at this point are not as dramatic but continuously pleasing and often evolve over an album side. The subtleties are amazing, and this combination is NOTHING short of impressive.
For a sub 400$ price including initial purchase, I am more than pleased and satisfied and feel that the value received for what is spent would be well worth it at 2 times the cost, IMO.
I am currently using the Technics SL1210 Jico SAS M91 ED in the great room listening with the following gear:
Funk Firm Mat
Viborg 280 Gram spindle weight
Marantz 1200 integrated Amplifier:
McIntosh LS320's on Sanus 29" sand filled stands
McIntosh PS 112 running off the Marantz 1200 center RCA pre out- crossed over at 60hz, 40% gain-100% gain on the Marantz center pre out
Teac X1000R
Marantz 10B Tuner
I plan on moving the turntable back in the primary room with mostly Mc gear, maybe..this combo is so addicting I may pick up another turntable for the Mc system and Blackbird, perhaps a VPI Aries 3 which has tickled my fancy as of late...
Thoughts or comments?...
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