Toe In

[jdandy]

WAF kills room treatments . I guess I need to continue to continue to fiddle with my placement :sigh:.

JR........Not all wall treatments are unattractive, and if done well, WAF can be improved upon.

Here are some photos of the acoustic panels I have added to my living room to tame reflections and standing waves. I use the bass traps in two corners, one being the corner behind my television. I chose Ivory as my fabric color for the living room. Please forgive the moure pattern on some photos, it's just digital artifacts from the camera. The fabric is all equal in color and texture. The panels are from ATS Acoustic, and the bass traps are from Echo Buster. ATS has a wide selection of fabric colors available, and will even make panels in cutom sizes. I use ATS panels in both rooms of my studio downstairs with great success, as well.

The acoustic panels by the corner bass traps, and behind the speaker near the equipment rack are 4" thick, open back versions, so the act as bass traps as well as control reflections. The other panels are 2" thick closed back panels that absorb reflections.

The difference in my room's acoustics with and without these panels is night and day. Although my room and speaker positioning are not perfect, from my main listening position on the couch, centered between the speakers, I have a wonderful sound stage, no standing wave issues, and no slap echo or first refection problems. Without the panels, my living room acoustics are poor at best, and where the one speaker is near the corner, the standing wave problem in the low frequency range is unacceptable without the bass trap and panels.

 

[Know_Talent]

JR........Not all wall treatments are unattractive, and if done well, WAF can be improved upon.

Here are some photos of the acoustic panels I have added to my living room to tame reflections and standing waves. I use the bass traps in two corners, one being the corner behind my television. I chose Ivory as my fabric color for the living room. Please forgive the moure pattern on some photos, it's just digital artifacts from the camera. The fabric is all equal in color and texture. The panels are from ATS Acoustic, and the bass traps are from Echo Buster. ATS has a wide selection of fabric colors available, and will even make panels in cutom sizes. I use ATS panels in both rooms of my studio downstairs with great success, as well.

The acoustic panels by the corner bass traps, and behind the speaker near the equipment rack are 4" thick, open back versions, so the act as bass traps as well as control reflections. The other panels are 2" thick closed back panels that absorb reflections.

The difference in my room's acoustics with and without these panels is night and day. Although my room and speaker positioning are not perfect, from my main listening position on the couch, centered between the speakers, I have a wonderful sound stage, no standing wave issues, and no slap echo or first refection problems. Without the panels, my living room acoustics are poor at best, and where the one speaker is near the corner, the standing wave problem in the low frequency range is unacceptable without the bass trap and panels.

Also note that EchoBusters is now selling panels with artwork silkscreened onto the fabric...

http://www.echobusters.com/acoustic_art.html

 

[Vintage Pete]

First Class

PHC1:Absolutely beautiful room and setup you've got there!! :yes: :thmbsp:

Pete

 

[PHC1]

PHC1:Absolutely beautiful room and setup you've got there!! :yes: :thmbsp:

Pete

Thanks Pete. It's a work in progress. :yes:

 

[JSCC]

Coming back on "toe-in", since I have done that, I do enjoy the XRT30's more than before. Love it.

By the way, have you guys got the chance to listen to the new type of CD's that are "Made In Japan" known as "SHMCD"? Well, they do cost more than the usual CD's (in the price range of XRCD's & SACD's). Many titles had since been issued, and personally, I have collected like 5 Deep Purple ones (In Rock, Burn, Stormbringer, Made In Japan, Woman From Tokyo), Rod Stewart's "Unplugged Live" and Eric Clapton's "Unplugged". All sounded more open, dynamic than the usual CD's recordings/mastering. Older recordings, like the Deep Purple's, all turn out way much better than before, even compared to MoFi's, which I had one to compare with "Woman From Tokyo". Understand this is a new type of CD materials. To me, they are worth every cent. Packaging comes in standard CD format or Cardboard type sleeves with a big round sticker showing "SHMCD"! Good stuff!!!:thmbsp:

Cheers!

 

[Victor]

Lets try and keep things on topic here.

Yes, the joke was funny but it is too rude for this forum. The rudeness it all deleted from this thread, if anyone has any questions or comments on this please let me know in a private message.

 

[Vintage Pete]

Nice, nice, very nice!

Thanks Pete. It's a work in progress. :yes:

Lets see...if I were a bettin' man, you'll be moving the McGear off the floor. If you do it in such a way as to even remotely match the way the rest of the setup looks, it will be astonishing! :drool:

Oh and by the way, those SF's look REALLY sweet!!

Pete

 

[salm]

Hey Exracer, these could be helpful.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=1061

No need for blue painter's tape on the floor if you had these babies! Sometimes my floor looks like a giant Smurf protractor I have so many tape markings on it.

 

[salm]

Plants. Don't listen without them.

Serge,
What kind of window treatments are you using?

 

[PHC1]

Lets see...if I were a bettin' man, you'll be moving the McGear off the floor. If you do it in such a way as to even remotely match the way the rest of the setup looks, it will be astonishing! :drool:

Oh and by the way, those SF's look REALLY sweet!!

Pete

You are correct Pete. Moving the gear off the floor is my next priority but I've been hung up on the choices of racks and my future expansion of the system. I need to make up my mind if I am getting a turntable and a preamp and plan accordingly for a rack or two. With the more serious racks out there costing $5k+, I need to make the right choice. :scratch2:

 

[jrsystems]

Has to do with strong side wall reflections. Listening fatigue is also caused when the ear tries to selectively listen to the direct source that is competing with powerful side wall reflections, it tires the brain. Either treat the side walls at the reflection points using the "mirror method" or use more toe in.

Serge, I think you are on the money here once again.

I added a bit more toe-in last night. I am probably half-way between the zero toe-in flat extreme that began this experiment and where they were originally pointed straight at me. By Joe I think I've got it! All that harshness that I was hearing with zero toe-in disappeared. Voices came right back into focus, yet the stage was still bigger than my original positioning. I enjoyed a glorious listening session last night!

I also threw a blanket on top of the marble coffee table that sits between my chair and the speakers. I think that helps as well. My wife thinks I'm nuts, oh well

On room treatments, that is just the one thing that is not happening in that room. First, we are in financial shut down right now (no, I am not selling any equipment right now), so I can't spend money on anything. Second, I just don't think I can pass the aesthetics test. So I'll make do. The room is not bad. There are heavy fabric shades on one side and the book cases/equipment racks on the other side and behind the equipment. Not terribly reflective. The ceiling is not a big concern since line arrays really don't project much sound vertically. The back wall could use some help. I'll explore this again down the road sometime.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[PHC1]

Serge, I think you are on the money here once again.

Glad to have been of service.

First, we are in financial shut down right now (no, I am not selling any equipment right now), so I can't spend money on anything.

Hope your financial woes are just temporary and everything will resolve soon... :thmbsp: The world is not coming to an end, so think positive and everything will be OK. :yes:

 

[jrsystems]

Very temporary thank you! I am actually leaving my job to run a start up that I have been working on for a few years. It is very promising and not negatively affected by the economy. I am totally psyched to be doing the entrepreneur thing, but things are going to be real tight for a while.

You will be able to directly guage the success of my new endeveur by carefully tracking my purchase announcements on this board over the next few years!

 

[PHC1]

Very temporary thank you! I am actually leaving my job to run a start up that I have been working on for a few years. It is very promising and not negatively affected by the economy. I am totally psyched to be doing the entrepreneur thing, but things are going to be real tight for a while.

You will be able to directly guage the success of my new endeveur by carefully tracking my purchase announcements on this board over the next few years!

There you go! Lots of luck with your new endeavour. If it is car related, PM me, will talk. :thmbsp:

 

[exracer]

Adjusted my toe again last night. (more toe in- they are about 5 degrees out from an axis of the speaker plane directly towards me) Soundstage is a little less wide, but a little deeper, and the vocals are a little more centrely focused. I think I will leave it for a few weeks...

 

[misterdoggy1]

Just as a point of interest I toe one in because its closer to the side wall and the sound is reflected more to the center because of it. The other speaker is toed almost straight going slitghtly toed out because it in more in the center of the room and there are no reflections.

I would have thought the center one needed to be more in my direction but thats not the case.

There seems to be no explaining.

The Room Correction software in the Meridian Processor does a lot to cut out bad reflections and find the proper filters, for which each type of listening is adjusted.

I know traps and echo busters would greatly help my situation, but we have lots of Art on the wall (Picasso, Art Nouveau Paintings and Posters etc) and I don't see taking down the Picasso Madura which is just in front of the Hifi to replace it with an echo buster, aint gonna happen with my wife.

 

[jdmeyers]

PHC1, beautiful room!

Personally, and perhaps because I integrate REL subs with my speakers, my Spendors sound way better to my ears with zero toe-in. Straight ahead, they put me in the concert hall. Toed-in, they feel "pinched" and all the magic disappears.

I have seen photos of other other serious Spendor fans (especially with the SP100s) who follow the same path.

Truly, I have to think it's dependent on the speaker, the room, and each person's own sense of what sounds "locked in." :thmbsp:

 

[Gregory]

My Thiel speakers are toed in just slightly, the right more-so that the left since the back of the room is L-shaped to the left. The right speaker is also just a bit forward.. maybe an inch but not much more.

They are some 48" from the back wall and have spikes in the base that penetrate the carpet. I like to walk around behind the speakers while they're playing.. often at night with a flashlight.

Years ago my Scott S71s were mounted on chrome swivel pedestals (from old swivel chairs.) They could easily be toed in and out at any time. I played these speakers on the pedestals for many many years.. since I was a teen-age kid.

http://home.comcast.net/~mc_audio/Scott_front.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~mc_audio/Scott_on_pedistal.jpg


Still am a big kid.

-G

 

[Victor]

I know traps and echo busters would greatly help my situation, but we have lots of Art on the wall (Picasso, Art Nouveau Paintings and Posters etc) and I don't see taking down the Picasso Madura which is just in front of the Hifi to replace it with an echo buster, aint gonna happen with my wife.

Have you seen this site?
http://www.acousticartpanels.com/
You can have your art and room treatments at the same time.

 

[Gregory]

All tweeters, horn, domes, or panel are very directional in the last few octaves. If the speaker is voiced in a balanced way you will want to toe them in. If the highs are overpowering you may prefer the speaker pointing straight ahead so you are off the tweeter axis at your center seating position.

This is true in my case. The speakers are designed to be positioned parallel to each other without toe-in since the on-axis response is somewhat bright with ripple, whereas the off-axis response is considered smoother.

On-axis frequency response

Off-axis frequency response

As for the OLD speakers on pedestals.. that was ok since the midrange and tweeters were mounted horizontally, and pivoting them in azimuth would produce a noticeably different frequency response. It was yet another parameter to play with.


-Gregory