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Topping D50s - 3 months in - Socketed OP Amp Swapping choices?

Sam08861

Sam08861

Super Member
Having had this a few months to play hi-res sacd/dvd-a/hd tracks, etc. files,

Things I like:
  • Really clean, clear sound and great dynamic range. Very smooth and 'glassy' as sound.
  • Remote is fantastic, and the fact that it can decode up to dsd 512 and 768Khz pcm is great.
    (only have a few test files in the top end of it's range)
  • Well built.
Minor Annoyances:
  • Occasional dropped audio on SACD based dsf files. However, this might be the player I'm using. (onkyo hf hd)
  • Can't tell much difference for the filters... Wish there was a bit more description of the sound character of each.
Things that I wish were better:
  • Soundstage depth isn't flat, but isn't deep like my pre-amps phono stage.

As such,

I'd like to improve on the soundstage, as I can live with the others. The unit has an LME49720 op amp, that's in a socket and can be swapped.

Addl info... Seems there are 2x op amps (OPA1612 Soundplus) that are soldered on, along with 2x ES9038Q2M Sabre DACs, which I'm not looking to try and desolder/swap.

Any suggestions on what might be my choices for the LME Op amp, in trying out different sounds, hoping to get a deeper soundstage?
 
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I was waiting to hear what the experienced op-amp rollers would say, but it appears no one has ventured suggestions. I suspect it comes down to personal preference, so you may just have to buy several op-amps and trust your own ears.

Let me say that the LME49720 is a well regarded op-amp to start with. If you Google "best op-amp" you will get a million conflicting opinions. Be aware that the best op-amp for a phono-stage, for example, is not necessarily the best op-amp for a DAC I/V stage.

So I just used the search term "best op-amp for DAC" and these are the 3 prominent/credible results I see: OPA2604, OPA827 (requires SOIC to DIP adapter), and MUSES8920.
There's a starting point for you.
 
Hey Linuxfan,

thanks again!

For the hi res discs, I Robot worked a charm, but been preferring the MSFL or original LPs though, perhaps due to the preference of the pre amp’s phono stage.

For eye in the sky, I was only able to rip the 1st 5 tracks with the MacOS app, so tried to get a windows machine spun up, but never finished up as my old pc got stuck in an update loop.

going to put a solid state SATA drive and rebuild the old PC or get an emulator on the Mac, but put that on hold due to the effort for the remaining tunes.

Also got derailed, spending effort having my SACDs ripped and transferred to the iPhone and getting new LPs. SACD is far better via the DAC, than the SACD disc player though and I was able to at least finally pull this out of the system.
 
ps.. found this, which seems to be helpful as to the perceived sound characteristics..

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/opa...-8920-burson-v6-classic.870832/#post-14271424

So going to order a few cheap ones that are available at Mouser...

Totally new to "op amp rolling" so some some dumb newby questions:

For each of the op amps, there's multiple offerings.. (for instance E suffix, JFET, etc...) https://www.mouser.com/new/njr/NJR-MUSES-Amplifiers/

Other that pinout, 8 pin dip, what should I be looking for to make sure it will fit and work? (voltage?, I know I need a dual?, what else?)
Will the JFET version work?
I see the MUSES03 @ $58, is this compatible? Too nice to make a noticeable difference in the budget oriented D50s and it's potentially budget components, construction?​

Thanks!
 
Sam08861 said:
For the hi res discs, I Robot worked a charm, but been preferring the MSFL or original LPs though
Click to expand...
Your comments led me to read this -
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-alan-parsons-project-i-robot-mfsl-sacd.579149/
People there appear to agree with you - the 2016 MFSL SACD is best, better then the DSD download, and better than the HDAD from 2003.

Sam08861 said:
For eye in the sky, I was only able to rip the 1st 5 tracks with the MacOS app
Click to expand...
As I mentioned in the other thread, people on the Steve Hoffman forum prefer the Blu-ray Audio disc of Eye in the Sky from the 35th Anniversary Deluxe Box Set ...
but of course you would then need to skill up with blu-ray ripping. And again, suitable ripping utilities are more readily available for Windows, than Mac.
 
Sam08861 said:
For each of the op amps, there's multiple offerings.. for instance E suffix
Click to expand...
In the case of the MUSES8820, the "D" suffix is for DIP8, the "E" suffix is for SOP8.
LME49860 is near-identical to LME49720, which you already have, except for a higher supply voltage rating.

But I now realise that you will be swapping out the second opamp, not the first. And after some more reading I see that recommendations for opamps are often related to whether they are in the first or second stage - as I understand it, the first opamp does the I/V conversion, the second opamp is a buffer, and sometimes a DIFF-SE converter.
There's an interesting comment here that jfet opamps are best only for the first stage -
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/best-op-amp-for-a-dac-output.284081/#post-3731657
If we are to believe this, then forget the 3 opamps I mentioned previously! They're all jfet!
And that head-fi.org link you provided is possibly not relevant for you, for the same reason.

OK, start from scratch - on the diyaudio forum there's a highly regarded ES9038Q2M DAC + output stage, which uses quite modern opamps - OPA1622 for first stage, and OPA1612 for second stage. These are SOIC8 size, but you can buy OPA1612 opamps on eBay pre-soldered on a SOIC to DIP adapter.

And here's a really interesting offer - an opamp-rolling "kit"
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Altoid-...4-OPA1612-AD8397-NE5532-LME49600/184115847173
the seller clearly consider this selection of opamps to be premium - and the OPA1612 does sound good for your particular situation.
 
Sam08861 said:
Having had this a few months to play hi-res sacd/dvd-a/hd tracks, etc. files,

Things I like:
  • Really clean, clear sound and great dynamic range. Very smooth and 'glassy' as sound.
  • Remote is fantastic, and the fact that it can decode up to dsd 512 and 768Khz pcm is great.
    (only have a few test files in the top end of it's range)
  • Well built.
Minor Annoyances:
  • Occasional dropped audio on SACD based dsf files. However, this might be the player I'm using. (onkyo hf hd)
  • Can't tell much difference for the filters... Wish there was a bit more description of the sound character of each.
Things that I wish were better:
  • Soundstage depth isn't flat, but isn't deep like my pre-amps phono stage.

...
Click to expand...

This is what I've read from other sources as well, that the D50 doesn't do depth of stage very well and is too glassy. One owner preferred his Modi Multibit for depth and organic sound. For 250 one shouldn't have to try different opamps, but I think you might have luck on the diyaudio forum.
 
Thanks runnin' I'll check that out. I got this one for just under 200 when it first came out, so hoping for another 50 or less, I can address this, or I suppose I'll be DAC unit rollin' instead of buffer Op Amps.

Have a couple of multibit CD players that I like, but wanting to do hi-res, so hoping there's a solution. Didn't think the multibit could do hi-res dsd or 24/192 natively? Perhaps I'm wrong?

Either way, I'd like to make this work if I can, but will cut bait if I can't get this to my liking as far as sound stage. Not worried about EQ side of things so much as I have very good control if need be (31 band or 8 band parametric) of that with the DriverackPA2 I'm using for room eq/crossover/tri-amping. (bi-amping + powered sub really)

edit... ps...I've emailed the topping distributor I purchased the unit from to see if Topping has any recommendations for an op amp that might have a bigger soundstage. He'd asked for feedback on the unit and a critique of functions and passed it along to them and given back their responses, so hopefully he can get some recommendations back from them.
 
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Sam08861 said:
Read something similar regarding buffer stage swapping at ASR with regard to buffer stage op amp swaps, however one of the posters did say soundstage might be one of the things that can be changed.
Click to expand...
Yes, I just looked through that forum thread now, and I see this from forum member Eiffel -
changing the buffer does not alter too much the overall sound. The I/V stage is the most important - this give about 90% of the sound.
The buffer/LPF just filter noise. It may alter at maximum 10% of the sound, and usually the soundstage is altered.
Click to expand...
Sounds plausible to me.

Sam08861 said:
hoping for another 50 or less, I can address this, or I suppose I'll be DAC unit rollin' instead of buffer Op Amps.
Click to expand...
For $10 or so I think you should take a gamble on the OPA1612.
 
Thanks for the recommendations. Going to order up a few.

OPA1612, Muse8920 and LM6172 based on recommendations from forums looking at buffer section.

Seems the stock item is the LME49720NA version.

edit... digikey had these all in stock + the soic to dip. $30 shipped.

Now to wait for brown santa.
 
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The 3 I ordered arrived yesterday and I'll have some time Sunday to do the swapping/listening.

Hopefully these turn out to have audible / enjoyable differences.

btw, got the following response from Topping.

"We tested OPA1612 at R&D phase of D50s and this OP-AMP can work well. OPAMP's choice is an open option, which gives users more possibilities, and our tests did not fully cover all. Therefore we cannot answer the question of sound."

Thanks for the recommendation Gibsonian, will give that a go if none of the above 'float my boat'

Thinking of these as analagous to carts/needles for my for my turntable. I've got some that are super detailed/analytic (SAS) in between (line contact) and musical (HE) and can swap easily between them. Hopefully it's not too much a chore. Wonder of there are DACs with a selector switch to swap between multiple sockets. Couldn't be too hard to rig up if there's such a thing as an 8 pole rotary switch.
 
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First up is the muse 8920. A few songs in, I am feeling an immediate sense of much less clinical/analytic and deeper soundstage. Maybe 7-9' vs the 3-5 perceived previously. Going to listen for a day or so as I'm really liking the sound. Perhaps more laid back, smoother and seems to be less fatiguing so far.

Edit, a bit less pronounced bass than the stock chip and maybe a tad darker. A nice balance, perhaps a bit more ‘audiophile’ sound. Liking it enough so far, that I’m not sure I even want to try the others.

According to ASR, this is probably all in my head measurement wise, but who knows, it sounds different to me.

Bit of trial and error getting the op amp seated in the proper orientation and the ribbon cable re-seated properly. Thought I'd fried the system for a bit, lol, but, thankfully, not.
 
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Btw, drum/piano medley on Patricia Barber, Cafe Blue - Nardis... stunning! (DSD of 2016 SACD)

also, for anyone wanting to do this, you'll need a 2mm hex to remove the 4 screws and the bottom panel. Then 2 more 2mm hex screws hold the board into the case. Just remove ribbon cable and bluetooth antenna and then the board can be lifted out.
 
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Good to hear that your opamp-rolling is proving beneficial.

Sam08861 said:
Looks like a gentleman at ASR also had luck with the 49720HA metal can...
Click to expand...
Well I read some time ago that the SOIC variant of the LME49720 is slightly better than the DIP8, and the metal can variant is slightly better again - but I'm quite surprised about the level of difference described by that D50s owner on the ASR forum!
If you wish to buy a metal can LME49720 (denoted by the "HA" suffix) be aware that they are obsolete, and out of stock at the big dealers like Mouser and Digikey. You can still get them from smaller outlets, but I suggest you buy only from a reputable eBay store in the U.S. The suspiciously cheap offerings from China have a good chance of being fake.
 
Roger that, linuxfan. Between the pseudoscience, subtlety of differences and reports of fake chips, it’s mouser/digikey only for me. Few bucks more but won’t have to be wondering if I have a fake all the time if there’s a recording flaw, etc.

For those same reasons, delicate ribbon cable clamp and static risk, also not going to swap out unless I stop liking the sound or have a problem.
 
After a few days, I'll be trying out the other 2 op amps.. While the muses8920 was to me (real or not :) ) an improvement over the LME49720, it still isn't matching the liveliness of my turntables or old 16 bit CD players. (recent 1541a score and toshiba TDA6709 DACs which have that voodoo that I do like)

I am finding DSDs over DOP are hit or miss, so not sure if it's the recording. Some seem a little flat still vs the equivalent CDs. Patricia Barber is phenomenal (too rich for my blood, Nardis, etc) while Rolling Stones Let it bleed isn't so much and my redbook cds are livelier. Roxy Music Avalon is again fantastic in DSD. Bob Dylan bob, Rolling Stones LiB and Norah Jones Come Away, Dire Straits Brothers in Arms... are 4 where I have both the CD and DSD files, so can A/B directly with the pre-amp knob and more or less the same timing, perhaps a few seconds off. For vinyl, I've been able to do the same with Nirvana Nevermind, MJ Thriller, and Bob Marley Legend. Wish I could get the "energy" and "realness" of the Vinyl or even some better CDs and the detail and resolution of the DSD and PCM files. One quick funny is that Rolling Stones Let it bleed sounds better send as 48K PCM via bluetooth into my GROM BT3 adapter into my car's audio system. (OK, some hyperbole here... clarity is no match, but the "vibe" is way better, lol)

Maybe it's some type of distortion I find pleasing and I will give the other OpAmps a try. I know I am probably getting ahead of myself.... but.... Any thoughts if the discrete Op amps, like Stratos or Burson V5i (only one that will fit this case, so what was recommended by Burson) in this buffer position might be worth a try? Or am I better served getting off the Topping Train before investing too much time into it?

I also have that troubling feeling and wondering if an RTR might be better suited for my individual tastes. I see there are some DSD capable RTR DACs but the ones I found are priced into the stratosphere. (Holo, Denafrips, Meridian, Mytek, etc). As a result, this will have to wait for a lottery win, higher paying job with a fantastic starting bonus or wait years until sell these on CL for cheap.

Anyone in NJ area up for a "DACaroo?" (sounds better than "DACoff," right?) Bunch of folks bring DACs, CDs and Records and we try them all out? Then rotate venues? Perhaps I'll post in the regional forum.
 
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