trivia: looking for p-mount turntable with dynamically-balanced tangential tonearm

[stanwebber]

i have a couple denon dp-7f turntables that i've never been satisfied with. the tonearm and motor seem good enough, but the rest of the build quality leaves something to be desired.

i often switch out cartridges multiple times during lengthy listening sessions so p-mount is a must. i've always preferred dynamic over statically balanced tonearms, but the only other p-mount turntables i've come across in this configuration are linear trackers which fail pretty miserably with off-center records.

i'm considering some mods to the dp-7f, but really would prefer starting over with a completely different unit, but i'm kinda coming up empty. does anyone know of an alternative turntable with the following criteria? thanks.

tonearm:
- p-mount
- pivoted (non-linear tracking)
- dynamically balanced

motor:
- direct drive
- quartz controlled

 

[muchachos]

Technics SL-x series? I think the SL-5 upwards fits all the criteria save quartz, but the SL-7 and SL-10 will match all of the above.

 

[stanwebber]

i know the sl-7 and sl-10 (not sure about sl-5, but wouldn't surprise me) have dynamically balanced tonearms, but they are all linear trackers, not tangential.

incidentally, the later technics linears (sl-j1/2/3 & incarnations) dropped the dynamically balanced tonearms in favor of static. chronologically, i think the sl-6 may be the last with dynamic (sl-q6 specs state dynamically balanced tonearm, but i'm not sure it is).

 

[sregor]

but they are all linear trackers, not tangential.

Was confused by term tangential, so looked up DP-7f and believe you mean servo controlled. Besides denon, the only servo controlled arms I've seen are Sony and JVC. I don't think any of those are p4.
If you mean something different by tangential tracking, please explain.

 

[stanwebber]

i guess i'm confusing the terminology here. linear tonearm and tangential tonearm appear to be referring to the same thing. i guess i was associating the terms with tracking offset as opposed to arm movement which appears to be the established convention. in any case, what i meant by tangential tonearm is a pivoted arm like you would find on a technics sl-1200. (original post edited to reflect this)

seriously, people to this day are still droning on about the inferiority of the t4p form factor? as if vinyl itself wasn't superceded multiple times over by demonstrably superior digital formats. while amperex's statement is factually true if only because all t4p cartridges can be adapted to a standard arm (assuming you can match the typically ultra-light compliance), while the reverse is not true for t4p mounts. i also think that statement is a crock--there are lots of excellent t4p cartridges.

look, i own more than 1 turntable (under 10 now, but as many as 20 at one point). what's being suggested is that i limit myself to just 1 turntable setup FOREVER. you know in that narrowly defined circumstance i absolutely agree: there's no way in hell i would i would pick a t4p turntable. now why are you asking me to get rid of all but 1 of my turntables again?

 

[theflattire]

VPI HW40
At $22k your end all DD table.

 

[lini]

linear tonearm and tangential tonearm appear to be referring to the same thing.

Not quite. A tonearm can also be tangential and not a linear-tracker - but that requires a continuous adaptation/variation of either the offset angle or the pivot point. And older example for the former approach can be found on the Garrard Zero, while current examples would be the Thales Statement and Simplicity II arms by HiFiction, and current examples for the latter approach the Reed 5A and 5T.

Whereas what you actually meant was a conventional radial-tracking arm with hifi-capable geometry (i.e. with suitable overhang and offset angle to ensure comparatively low tracking error angles).

Unfortunately I don't know all too many tables, that would fulfill all your criteria. An idea could be the Thorens TD524 with its TP16L/Spezial and a T4P/P-mount adaptor.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[HamboneF18]

So… What is a “dynamically balanced” arm vs a statically balanced arm? Even Denons require statically balancing the arm prior to turning on the servo circuits. Isn’t a “tangential arm” a linear tracking arm? As opposed to a pivot-arm? And, most T4P arms allow plug-n-play swapping of T4P cartridges. So having many p-mount carts and only 1 arm is quite ok. I have 16 p-mount carts; but I have a universal adapter mounted to a headshell, so I can plug-n-play T4P carts on my conventional pivot arm table.

 

[stanwebber]

yeah, i muddied the terminology by using tangential. i presumed it meant a tracking error tangent to the center line (0%). no, the common convention is that it means 0 or very close to no tracking error (in other words NOT at a tangent). in that reverso definition, both linear and (complicated) pivoted tonearms could qualify.

dynamically balanced is easier. basically, any tonearm using something other than gravity to apply downward force (vtf). i suppose you could do it with something other than a spring (magnets?), but that is the only example i know.

i tried the t4p adapter route, but they are kinda crap...get loose after unplugging & replugging several dozen times and then i have to set up everything again. poor tolerances on some t4p carts don't help either. i got a jar full of those adapters that i should just throw away. now if someone were to make (3d print?) a really good adapter with proper pin sockets then i would reconsider.

edit: a technics SH-90S headshell fits the bill. now, am i willing to spend $300 on just a headshell?

 

[HamboneF18]

What??

I have an AT universal adapter on a conventional headshell. (Also have Empire, ADC, Shure, and other U-adapters) I’ve plugged different P-mounts in 50-100 times and still have no issues with a cart fitting snug and being in alignment. I rarely use the screw, since the carts fit snuggly. I have ADC PSX carts (6), Shure, Pickering, Empire, Excel, AT, Stanton, Nagatron, and even a few others, and of unknown brand.

dynamically balanced is easier. basically, any tonearm using something other than gravity to apply downward force (vtf). i suppose you could do it with something other than a spring (magnets?), but that is the only example i know.

That threw me. That isn’t “dynamic balancing.” That is spring or electric motor VTF. Denons with the Dynamic Servo Tracer arms use static balance (Counter Weight) and electric servo motors to apply AS and VTF.

 

[stanwebber]

if you're expecting the master arbiter of turntable terminology to define what a dynamically balanced tonearm is it aint me. i already got the tangential thing completely backwards. if you want more clarification on what i'm looking for i guess i could say i'm looking for a turntable that will work in space (with a record clamp i guess).

you got a good t4p adapter then. the ones i tried had the pins come loose after awhile. i always use the screw if only for the fractional weight addition although i got frustrated with the philips/slotted heads and bought a bag of non-ferrous mini hex cap screws which engage more securely with a hex/torx bit.

i put a lot of wear & tear on my carts:

 

[JP]

edit: a technics SH-90S headshell fits the bill. now, am i willing to spend $300 on just a headshell?

SH-80S is a tad cheaper. I’m not aware of any dynamic T4P arms. Why is dynamic a requirement?

 

[stanwebber]

SH-80S is a tad cheaper. I’m not aware of any dynamic T4P arms. Why is dynamic a requirement?

um, commercial space tourism is a real thing now. while it is currently by invitation only, it will open up to general admission within my lifetime and i guarantee you i WILL be doing this even if it costs more than sending a kid to college. i want to be able to play my warped records without the tonearm "lifting off" on the ground as well as in space.

 

[JP]

How warped are your warped records? I use a B500/A505 and at 6g EM it’d take one heck of a warp to cause an issue.

 

[lini]

(...) no, the common convention is that it means 0 or very close to no tracking error (in other words NOT at a tangent). (...)

No, not not at a tangent, but rather (almost) at a tangent. I.e., while the groove of course actually is a spiral, one can nevertheless regard it as being almost circular to the record centre at any playback radius. And a tangent to a circle always forms a 90° angle with the radius line.

Well, and linear tracking is that special case of tangential tracking, in which it's (ideally) always one and the same radius line - whereas in case of both the offset and the pivot point variation approach different radius lines apply, depending on the playback radius.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[stanwebber]

How warped are your warped records? I use a B500/A505 and at 6g EM it’d take one heck of a warp to cause an issue.

i got 1 or 2 really bad ones, but more-so off-center records are more of an issue in my collection which is a problem for the linear trackers. thump, thump, thump...

 

[HamboneF18]

if you're expecting the master arbiter of turntable terminology to define what a dynamically balanced tonearm is it aint me. i already got the tangential thing completely backwards. if you want more clarification on what i'm looking for i guess i could say i'm looking for a turntable that will work in space (with a record clamp i guess).

you got a good t4p adapter then. the ones i tried had the pins come loose after awhile. i always use the screw if only for the fractional weight addition although i got frustrated with the philips/slotted heads and bought a bag of non-ferrous mini hex cap screws which engage more securely with a hex/torx bit.

i put a lot of wear & tear on my carts:
View attachment 2672484

Is that an ADC PSX30/40?

I’ve got multiples of the 10/20 and 30/40. Series IV (PSX40) shown.

I keep that U-adapter mounted on that headshell. I rotate in different p-mounts.

 

[HamboneF18]

i got 1 or 2 really bad ones, but more-so off-center records are more of an issue in my collection which is a problem for the linear trackers. thump, thump, thump...

A little off-topic, but I’ve found that the Zero Arms on my Z100 and GT55 play off-center records extremely well. The tangential moving headshell does a great job adjusting.

 

[JP]

i got 1 or 2 really bad ones, but more-so off-center records are more of an issue in my collection which is a problem for the linear trackers. thump, thump, thump...

Thump?

 

[HamboneF18]

If a linear tracking arm has no allowable “play”, you’ll get a “thump.” They aren’t made to track in reverse, to the outside of the record. Especially once the arm tracks in, then the off-center record needs a quick track outside. “Thump.”