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Tung Sol 7591A Tests

dcgillespie

Fisher SA-100 Clone
Subscriber
With these tubes being new on the market, there has been quite a bit of buzz about them, from how they look, to their size, and how they sound -- all of which has received positive press. Of course, any long term dependability results will simply take time to prove out, but in the mean time, tests can still be run to see how they stack up against the original American pieces, and the other current production versions of this tube. Therefore, an order for a matched quad of these tubes was placed with Jim McShane, who quickly got them to my doorstep.

From the stand point of size and appearance, these tubes are for all intents and purposes virtually the same size as the original full base American 7591 (non A version) tube -- even though this new tube is identified as a 7591A. Therefore, this new tube is slightly taller than the button based A version of this tube as last produced in America, with that tube being slightly shorter than the non A American version as well.

The internal structure has detail differences as well, with the most notable difference being that the tooling holes in the plate are round in this new tube, versus square in the American versions. But don't just give these tubes a casual glance, or it would be quite easy to assume that they are an American product! A dead giveaway however is that the classic Tung Sol stop sign identifying the tube type appears to be painted onto the top of the tube, rather than etched.

Overall however, the size and appearance are very positive, with this new tube looking like it was actually born out of the original American device.
So onto some initial testing.

I have not run all the tests I plan to yet, as I wanted to get some initial findings out there to the community. Therefore, at this point, I have only been able to validate the match as provided by Jim, the power output capability, and simply how the tubes reacted to the test events. The results are significant.

From a standpoint of matching under quiescent (no signal) current draw conditions, 3 of the 4 tubes were matched within better than .5%, while the forth tube was still well matched, but deviated from the rest of the pack by 3.3%, which then set the overall balance achieved for the quad. By itself, this is very good matching, with the matching of the three tubes being beyond exceptional. With this level of quiescent matching -- particularly with high Gm tubes like the 7591 family of tubes represents -- you can expect the output tubes to be well balanced in equipment that offers limited or no ability to adjust individual output tube current draw.

Understand that while the tubes MAY be manufactured to a good tolerance level, the high degree of quiescent matching achieved in my quad is entirely due to the vender used. Therefore, the few extra pennies paid for a quality vender not only culls out the rejects, but also produces a superior match. I have no business connections with Jim, but when his service, culling, and matching are all considered, his reputation and value are well deserved.

With these being new tubes, and my sample so small, it is hard to establish what a norm is for their power capability. However, I can state that as judged against a nominal American device, the group as an average produced nearly 87% of the power that quality American devices can produce. On an "English" scale, this places these tubes as solidly GOOD as compared to what the American pieces can do. That scale has any tube producing 81% or better of what a nominal American piece can produce as being GOOD. Within the group, two of the tubes were dead on the 87% average, while one was weaker at 82%, and another being an over achiever at nearly 92%.

But that's not the whole story. There are details of the testing that show the very notable improvement that these tubes represent over the other current production 7591 tubes I've tested:

1. The bias setting is VERY stable in all four tubes. Other examples of non-American 7591s I've tested tend to be lazy in reaching a final resting point, or, will change with short term large signal (power output) excitation tests. The stability noted with these tubes was impressive.

2. The tubes performed very well with the heaters operating at 6.300 vdc. Many Russian tubes actually require a heater voltage that is about 5% high of spec to achieve a reasonable level of performance. With the Tung Sols, not only was the performance very good at the design center of 6.3 volts, but it only slightly improved with the heaters operating a +5%.

3. Most importantly, the power readings at maximum power output were quite stable!! This is huge, with a stability that is reminiscent of quality American pieces. Other examples of these tubes all too often either increase from a lower power level during testing due to internal heating of the tube, or actually sink in power, because the cathode simply cannot keep up. That these tubes -- all of them -- held a stable power output reading during testing represents a significant improvement over previous foreign efforts to manufacture this tube that I've tested, which should bode will for tube life. It speaks directly to the quality of cathode construction and activation, which is everything towards that end.

All in all then, these tubes are still somewhat short of the best American pieces produced. But in my opinion, they represent a major improvement over previous modern efforts to manufacture this tube. These tubes represent a significant effort to actually replicate the original device in terms of size, appearance, and performance. My testing is clearly and obviously limited to a four tube sample. But based on the results I'm seeing, versus that which I've all too often seen in the past, the results are very positive. I am very heartened by the development of this tube. I look forward to the experience that others can provide as well!

Happy tubing!

Dave
 
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Well, this is great news. All reports from those who have bought these tubes seem to be positive. Will definitely love to hear what you think of their sound Dave, in that you can compare them to the classic 7591's.

As always thanks for your efforts and the great information.
 
Don -- My power output tester tests the 7591 family of tubes at (and this is the important point) 400 vdc on the screen grid, with the voltage applied to all the elements tightly regulated. The plate voltage used is also 400 vdc, but as long as it is at least equal to the screen, it could be at that point or higher and still deliver accurate test results. The quiescent current used is 30 ma PLATE current, which translates into about 33 ma quiescent cathode current, by the time the screen current is accounted for. The tube also operates in a fixed bias mode for the test. Therefore, the test conditions are VERY similar to those used in so many Fisher and other receivers, integrated amplifiers, and separates. The negative Grid No 1 voltage to produce that current draw averaged about -21.5 vdc.

Dave
 
Dave, have you ever done similar testing on an EH 7868? I'm just curious if they read about the same. My thinking is that for the TS 7591a, maybe the guys at New Sensor simply re-bottled the EH 7868. If this one actually tests better than the 7868 though, perhaps it is a revised / improved design.



Honestly I wish this tube had existed a year or so back when I rebuilt my Sherwood. I would not have converted it to use EH 7868 tubes. Unfortunately the option at the time was expensive and dwindling NOS stock or convert it.
 
Gadget -- An excellent point. And to it, no, I have never done testing on the EH 7868 tube. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever even seen one, but well remember that you did convert one of your units to use this tube, because (as I recall) it did work properly from a size standpoint, and, along with the other EH products, was dependable as well.

At this point, to do testing on that tube, I'd have to source a socket for them, as that tube has the socket damage issue versus the original device as well.

I should also mention that I have had some conversation with Jim regarding the results of my performance testing of the new TS tubes, versus those of the current EH 7591 offering, wherein he said:


"d) Regarding the EH 7591A – the tube has gotten better and better the longer it has

been in production – you ‘ll find the current production will outperform tubes from

a few years ago"

To his point, my testing of the EH versions were in fact done likely 5 or 6 years ago now. Since then, I have tested other folk's EH versions and have not seen much change with regards to that tube's behavior when power output testing is performed, but those may have been older examples as well. To be fair then, I might look into getting a current production quad of the EH tubes so the comparison would be absolutely fair.

Also, I should spotlight the difference between the testing I do, versus that which Jim does, and the implications that has on the dynamic portion of matching efforts. My test is a large signal dynamic (power output) test, which takes into consideration both the characteristic (Gm), AND the ultimate condition of a tube's cathode, which then yields capability. This is primarily because I built my tester to test a tube for its CONDITION over time, to aid in determining its useful amount of life left. But these results can also just as easily be used to help match tubes as well -- at any point in their life span. On the other hand, the traditional Gm testing that Jim does is (by definition) a small signal test, which largely then tests only for characteristic, leaving ultimate capability still in question. The condition of a tube's cathode can wear considerably, yet still allow it to meet its designed characteristics under the small signal conditions that Gm tests are conducted at.

It must be understood however, that the testing that Jim and I perform -- while different -- are both absolutely appropriate for the different goals we seek. He is in fact endeavoring to match primarily characteristic, as after his culling process, cathode condition largely falls out of the equation. Therefore, characteristic is the important parameter. On the other hand, my goal is to establish capability, to determine the useful life remaining in a tube. In that seeking that goal, large signal testing is indispensable towards that end.

Ultimately then, from the standpoint of matching NEW tubes, both approaches are equally valid, and will largely produce similar results. To that point, Jim specifies a maximum Gm deviation of 10% as the standard for the dynamic element of his matching process. My tubes produced strictly Gm results that were well within that range, with the power output capability of the four tubes within that range as well.

Dave
 
I see a NEW 6 WAY Shootout in the not so near FUTURE.
1.) Tungsol Reissue
2.) Older EH's
3.) Newer EH's
4.) Older JJ's
5.) New JJ's
6.) OLD STOCK. (Use Dave's original Test Results for 2,4,6. )

Nice to know that the Tung-Sol's show a promise of decent if not good performance. Another option.
 
Gadget -- An excellent point. And to it, no, I have never done testing on the EH 7868 tube. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever even seen one, but well remember that you did convert one of your units to use this tube, because (as I recall) it did work properly from a size standpoint, and, along with the other EH products, was dependable as well.

At this point, to do testing on that tube, I'd have to source a socket for them, as that tube has the socket damage issue versus the original device as well.



Dave



yeah, I bought Magnoval sockets for mine just because I didn't want to deal with forcing the tubes into the wrong socket. That has it's own issues, namely that I'm married to one tube now. Shame I don't have an extra set, I'd be happy to send them to you along with my 7868's for comparative testing. Its not a very easy socket to find in known quality. Most of the ones that show up are Chinese.
 
I just had occasion to test four 7591AEH tubes, so I thought I would add their information to the mix.

These four tubes all look essentially new, with near if not perfect getters, and the identification paint still very much in tact on the sides of the tubes.

These tubes were not obtained under any pretense of being matched, and it's a good thing they weren't, as the quiescent grid bias voltage was all over the map for these four tubes. The point of their testing is to see how they do in comparison to the Tung Sols I posted information for at the beginning of this thread.

In terms of power output capability, they were all over the map as well, as I am generally accustomed to observing with EH tubes of unknown origin or screening.
Compared to new American Old Stock tubes as a basis for 100% power output capability, these tubes produced 64.7%, 83.5%, 92.9%, and 96.0% of that capability.

Now those results in and of themselves is significant, as in the past, I've never seen any EH example produce much over 80% of Average New Power Output (ANPO). However, two previously observed characteristics remain: that being that (1), power output still sinks from an initial high once the test commences, and (2) best performance is still produced with the heaters operating at least at 105% of nominal.

One final point is interesting as well, which others will be able to make more of than I can: The two weakest tubes had codes on them of 07 02, while the two strongest tubes had codes of 07 07.

There was clearly improved performance in the tubes with the latter code, so this may be significant -- particularly in light of Jim's comments that I published earlier.

Dave
 
Dave,
Excellent thread, but one question comes to mind. How do they sound? How would you compare the new Tung Sols sonically to the Old American Tubes?
And how would you describe "The 7591 Sound" in general compared to other popular Fisher amps and tubes (el84, el34).

I'm interested because I picked up a 680-A console pull amp with Westinghouse/Fisher 7591's but haven't heard it yet.

What was the 7591 sound?
 
Dave,
I've seen original US 7591As in both full base and coin-base. If memory serves, the only coin-base 7591As I've seen were all later-production GEs. I'll see if I can dig out some of my full-base 7591As.

Quick update: didn't need to. I have a full-base Sylvania 7591A sitting on my desk.
 
The latest of the old production coin based tubes say Philips - ECG, indicating the former Sylvania company.
 
Hey -- I'm probably going to step in it here, and go off on a little bit of a rant, but overall, the easiest answer I can give is based around two points:

1. I haven't actually listened to the new Tung Sols just yet, but more to the point,

2. I'm not really one who places a lot of weight on the sound of electrical components in the first place -- as long as the possible component candidates are all good, and appropriate for the task at hand.

When those needs are satisfied, then I find that changes in sound are almost entirely driven by circuit design rather than being due to the brand of tubes or components used -- again, assuming they are all capable of the job at hand, and of similar capability.

For me, it became clear long ago that unless subjective impressions are determined under very controlled conditions, there is way, WAY too much emotion involved to make any kind of definitive statement as to better, worse, good, bad, etc. Opinions offered up by one individual, or by separate individuals operating individually is a personal opinion -- period. The problem is that today, so many of the personal opinions are all too often offered up as settled, definitive statements.

I absolutely respect the opinions that each individual has for what works best for them and their system. We all have them. I make no judgement against those who might differ with my opinion. However, I would offer two very sobering points relative to this subject for consideration:

1. I have participated in more controlled subjective testing events than I can remember, where anything from circuit modifications, to boutique parts, to "out there" concepts were being tested. In such tests, control of the test is administered by a non participant control person, so that the participants:

A. Have no idea in what "mode" the test begins in,

B. Have no idea when or even if a switch is made during the test, and

C. Have no idea what responses the other participants are scoring during the test.

When more than 50% of a group of 7 or more participants can accurately (i.e. > 50% of the time) identify what option was playing during what time period of the test under THOSE conditions, then the subjective results so achieved carry a very credible amount of weight.

Using such testing, most of the tube rolling (that couldn't be attributed to obvious differences in measurable characteristics), boutique parts testing, and weird concept testing (AC polarity, and the like) were all majorly shot down in flames using this approach -- and not just by me, but by whole groups of participants. A participant's favorite tube, part, or idea, was often shot down by himself in such events! The testing then acts to remove all elements of personal emotion, feeling, or preconceived preference, so that an honest assessment can be made of a proposed change based on its merits alone.

On the other hand, such things as (for example) power output reserve capability, additional power supply capacitance, circuit stability, output stage mode of operation (pentode, triode, UL), RIAA compliance, absolute phase integrity, and on and on all generally have high degrees of test result correlation in the various test events. I have participated in such events where I went in thinking one way on a topic, and came out thinking another -- but it was because there was credible evidence to support changed thinking.

These experiences then have helped me to keep hype in perspective, while also helping to spotlight the things that can truly make an audible difference.

2. RCA, Tung Sol, and Westinghouse did not set up any meetings to discuss the sound they wanted to achieve out of their newly developed tubes -- other than how low they could push distortion figures. RCA developed (for example) the 6L6, Tung Sol the 6550, and Westinghouse the 7591 -- all to fill a gap in the need to develop a level of power output most efficiently. The 6550 replaced push-pull-parallel 6L6 family designs, the 6L6 itself had already made push-pull-parallel 6V6 family designs rather rare, while the 7591 replaced push-pull-parallel 6BQ5 family designs.

Likewise, Fisher (for example) didn't use 400 volt coupling caps on the plate side of the phase inverter, and 250 volt caps on the cathode side, to "voice" their units. These caps were chosen for their voltage ratings based on the circuit voltages they would be subjected to in operation. Beyond that, components were chosen on a cost/dependability/physical size basis only.

Now to be certain, console units (for example) were often "voiced", be it with permanent rumble filters built into those units, or loudness boost features permanently installed in smaller sized units, etc. But the voicing was achieved by specific circuit design -- not parts selection.

This whole idea of the "sound" of various electrical components used within a device -- from the wire used, to the type of construction used -- is a relatively modern event. So how does it relate to me -- be it with tubes, passive components, or otherwise? I certainly have my own personal preferences for sure -- but they're primarily based on knowing that a given component is delivering all the performance that type of component is capable of for the need at hand -- either because of its inherent quality, or because standardized testing has shown superiority -- and can do so under all conceivable conditions of use. Therefore, I already prefer the new Tung Sol 7591A simply because testing has shown that it is capable of doing a better job of "being" a 7591 vacuum tube, than other modern counterparts do.

But for full disclosure, while all the preceding is factually based, it is also none the less my OPINION as well -- but it's NOT offered as a definitive statement. However -- and this may be the most important point of all -- now at least you know why I have the opinions I do!

Dave
 
Dave,
Maybe my question was vague.

From what I've read, The Beatles used EL84/6BQ5 amps at Abby Road Studios. Many people use the guitar intros from "I feel Fine" and "Day Tripper" as an example when describing the EL84 sound.

I have a few different EL84 amps and many different brands of the EL84 variants and enough free time to experiment. Amperex tubes sound better in one amp, RCA's better in another, etc. When someone asks me why different tubes, I tell them it's like changing the strings on a guitar...for a different sound.

I also have a couple of different EL34 amps, but I really haven't taken the time to roll too many tube brands through those amps. I doubt I'll bother.

I have a Single Ended amp that is very clear and detailed, yet it's not as much "fun" to listen to as any of my EL34 amps. Guitars sound like they're in the room on my EL84 amps, while female vocals are to die for on my EL34 amps.

No amp seems to be "the perfect amp".

My impression is that the tubes themselves (EL34/EL84) have their own signature sound. It's not simply a circuit to me.

Why bother with 7591 in the first place? Is there something about the way that tube sounds that people like, or is it just about the power? I had a Scott 7591 integrated that I traded away a few years ago only because I knew replacement tubes would be difficult and expensive to purchase. At the time it seemed foolish to even invest any time and money in such an amp. Beautiful amp, I refused to even consider it

The question wasn't just for you, I was wondering if anyone at all had an opinion.


Can anyone offer a description of the 7591 sound, if there is such a thing? Why do people even bother with amps using that tube?
 
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