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Unfair Cartridge Reviews and the true nature of break-In time

The break-in period is real. I hear the difference every time I put on a new stylus. If you have a revealing system, you'll notice the difference. Some styli set in in less than 10 hours. Others take longer. The most noticeable case I had was with a brand new Denon DL 301-II. I even recorded some tunes on a cassette and compared later on. Night and day. Some people say it takes 50 hours for a stylus to break in. Some adopt 500 hours as a stylus's lifespan. That's 10% of a stylus life. So, not only does the suspension loosen up, the stylus' shape plays a role in the break-in process too.
 
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I don't think mass/compliance calculations make matching straightforward. First, the measurements are taken at different frequencies by different manufacturers and after unspecified break in times, then, if the headshell is different from the one the maker intended or if the cartridge is not the assumed mass, the effective arm mass is different than the provided figure. Then, of course, not everyone agrees with what the desired ideal resonant frequency is.
And that's before we get to how many theoretically unideal pairings work perfectly well.
I am inclined to think that there may be some change in a cartridges sound as the suspension breaks in and as the stylus is given a slight polish, but that this should be over a very short period of time if the maker chose proper materials for the damper and well polished styli, and mounted them properly. I am certain that our brains adapt to what we are listening to, and fairly quickly, and that psychology has an awful lot to do with the whole break in thing. Also marketing...
 
Just because I have heard and believe in break-in, doesn't make it real. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean it isn't a real thing. Personally, I think it's very dependent on the particular cart/stylus, as well as the system it's in.

I'm inclined to believe it's a real thing, or we wouldn't still be discussing it.

Finally, save your 'psycho-acoustic' prattle, you'll never convince me that I didn't hear what I said I heard, but good on ya fer tryin......
 
Nat said:
I don't think mass/compliance calculations make matching straightforward. First, the measurements are taken at different frequencies by different manufacturers and after unspecified break in times, then, if the headshell is different from the one the maker intended or if the cartridge is not the assumed mass, the effective arm mass is different than the provided figure. Then, of course, not everyone agrees with what the desired ideal resonant frequency is.
And that's before we get to how many theoretically unideal pairings work perfectly well.
I am inclined to think that there may be some change in a cartridges sound as the suspension breaks in and as the stylus is given a slight polish, but that this should be over a very short period of time if the maker chose proper materials for the damper and well polished styli, and mounted them properly. I am certain that our brains adapt to what we are listening to, and fairly quickly, and that psychology has an awful lot to do with the whole break in thing. Also marketing...
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Some thoughts

"if the headshell is different from the one the maker intended or if the cartridge is not the assumed mass, the effective arm mass is different than the provided figure."

Quite a few of us use one piece arms, so the arm mass is a given quantity. If the user changes the headshell to one that is non stock, its pretty easy to calculate the difference in weight and change arm mass accordingly. Does not seem a difficult problem to navigate.

"if the cartridge is not the assumed mass"

If the cartridge manufacturer cannot give you the correct mass on a cartridge, how do you trust them to build you a cartridge at all? Conversely, how hard is it to put a cartridge on a scale and confirm its mass?

"measurements are taken at different frequencies by different manufacturers and after unspecified break in times"

Yes the 10 Hz versus 100 Hz debate. Some will use a rule of thumb of applying a factor of 7.5 to go from 100 to 10. The number is not exact, but given the wide range of compliance that is in the target range its not unreasonable to do so. So if oyu hit 9.4 Hz versus 9.8 Hz is it really critical and an end of the world? Perhaps it becomes an issue if you are on the fringe of 7 or 12 Hz.

"not everyone agrees with what the desired ideal resonant frequency is."

That is true. But you do have a reasonably broad range to aim at. There are also observable effects that people have had over the years, such as collapsing suspensions when using a high compliance cartridge on a high mass arm, or woofer pumping due to a lower than optimum resonance point. Let us not forget a lack of bass when using a low compliance cartridge on a low mass arm.

The one point that is worth mentioning is that arm effective mass varies in regards of the distance of the counterweight relative to the bearing pivot. But once again you have such a large target to hit of acceptable resonance point that the alternation of EM is not critical unless you are on the boundaries to start with. So while nice to think about, its not going to make or break a cartridge set up in most cases. Of course there are always examples of exceptions.
 
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It wears out more than it breaks in. If you don't like it from the start keep it in the drawer until your ears get older or move it. I honestly haven't had a cartridge I didn't like.
 
Aerobat said:
One reviewer said it takes 1000 hours for a cartridge to break-in, so it can go both ways. I do believe they break-in in terms of the rubber suspension and diamond wear.
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So, the tip is well worn before it's broken in? @ ca 20 min/side, who has time for that to get a well-worn tip on a conditioned suspension?
 
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Biggest problem with cartridge reviews is there is too much focus on the subjective aspects. Typically these comments are of little use to me because I'm not listening to the same records as the reviewer. I do appreciate cartridge bench tests but depending who does them, they may not provide enough information for me. I like Lowbeats tests the best right now if we are talking about professional reviews.

Whenever I get a new cart now I have my own testing procedures and records I like to use to evaluate things like inner groove tracing ability. Unfortunately there is no objective test for that, and subjective reviewers tend to do a poor job testing for this, if they ever factor it in at all.

My 2 cents.
 
patient_ot said:
Biggest problem with cartridge reviews is there is too much focus on the subjective aspects. Typically these comments are of little use to me because I'm not listening to the same records as the reviewer. I do appreciate cartridge bench tests but depending who does them, they may not provide enough information for me. I like Lowbeats tests the best right now if we are talking about professional reviews.

Whenever I get a new cart now I have my own testing procedures and records I like to use to evaluate things like inner groove tracing ability. Unfortunately there is no objective test for that, and subjective reviewers tend to do a poor job testing for this, if they ever factor it in at all.

My 2 cents.
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I'm not too fond of the reviews that use all those adjectives, as if they are reviewing wine or some fancy food. I like concise reviews, which I can relate to the author. In the end, it's an educated guess, at best — owner's trial-&-error.
 
Can't say I ever purchased any carts based on a reviewer's comments. I usually like the sound of my new carts the second I set the new stylus/cart on the record.

I have never found any that sucked when I first played them, only to get better later on, and then found I really liked it after a while.

The few that I didn't like right off, I never got to like, no matter how long I played them.
 
Mister Pig - in your comment about 'assumed mass', I believe you have correctly identified an error in my thinking. Lazily, I assumed that the easiest and most accurate way for a manufacturer to present effective arm mass was to actually measure the resonant peak with a cartridge of known mass and compliance. But maybe they just use basic physics calculations.
Which, I wonder, might not be misleading. Arms don't have uniform distribution of mass - the headshell/cartridge carrier is different than the arm tube. Is this accounted for in the calculations, and how?
And the cartridge itself - if the effective mass is measured with it, shouldn't the arm maker specify what it was? And is it reasonable to treat a cartridge as a uniform lump of specific mass? The center of mass of real cartridges probably varies a bit, or more than a bit.
I recognize that all of my quibbles are just that - quibbles. But, the details seem to matter a lot in audio, and certainly the entire issue in question in this thread could be described as such, though clearly many see it as very important. And if cartridge break in is important, how does it affect the current enthusiasm for deciding whether a cartridge is suitable for an arm, based on calculations rather than listening and looking at behavior?
 
Ken Boyd said:
Can't say I ever purchased any carts based on a reviewer's comments. I usually like the sound of my new carts the second I set the new stylus/cart on the record.

I have never found any that sucked when I first played them, only to get better later on, and then found I really liked it after a while.

The few that I didn't like right off, I never got to like, no matter how long I played them.
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Me either. The first side of an LP I know well, will tell the story. Sometimes, the first song --- whether I'm are going to like the cartridge or not.

It's hard to put into words all the reasons why. A lot of subjective and objective all mixed together. Ah! The joys of analog!

happy - snoopy.gif
 
Interesting discussion re: break-in. I have four Ortofon cartridges and the FAQ part of their website says 20 hours break-in is needed but I bet that is a generalized amount of time given their range of the cartridges. I have read that carts need 50 hours of break-in but I suspect most have reached their steady state earlier and 50 hours is an outside number. I doubt I'd have the patience to wait that long (approx. 70 records) to critically listen to a new cart.
 
Hugo65 said:
The break-in period is real. I hear the difference every time I put on a new stylus. If you have a revealing system, you'll notice the difference. Some styli set in in less than 10 hours. Others take longer. The most noticeable case I had was with a brand new Denon DL 301-II. I even recorded some tunes on a cassette and compared later on. Night and day. Some people say it takes 50 hours for a stylus to break in. Some adopt 500 hours as a stylus's lifespan. That's 10% of a stylus life. So, not only does the suspension loosen up, the stylus' shape plays a role in the break-in process too.
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My 301 sounded great from the get go. But after 50 hours it started to open up and get outrageous! At about 300 hours it's fantastic.

I find adjusting the loading into my Lundahl SUT has a wonderful effect, Deepening the sound stage with crisp extended highs. Lovin it.

Although break-in is everywhere I suspect most of break-in happens with-in speakers "Electro-Mechanical" operation.

Buck
 
Buck Rogers said:
My 301 sounded great from the get go. But after 50 hours it started to open up and get outrageous! At about 300 hours it's fantastic.

I find adjusting the loading into my Lundahl SUT has a wonderful effect, Deepening the sound stage with crisp extended highs. Lovin it.

Although break-in is everywhere I suspect most of break-in happens with-in speakers "Electro-Mechanical" operation.

Buck
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Couldn't have said it better myself!
Cheers, Doug
 
Wait, wait, don't tell me. The warranty runs out at 19 hours right?

JK.




AvFan said:
Interesting discussion re: break-in. I have four Ortofon cartridges and the FAQ part of their website says 20 hours break-in is needed but I bet that is a generalized amount of time given their range of the cartridges. I have read that carts need 50 hours of break-in but I suspect most have reached their steady state earlier and 50 hours is an outside number. I doubt I'd have the patience to wait that long (approx. 70 records) to critically listen to a new cart.
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twiiii said:
Next they will be saying a 10% change in humidity or a 5 degree change in temperature effects the sound of our speakers and cartridges, when its our ears being effected and not our systems.
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Humidity and temperature definitely have an effect on sound. Check this page from Eminence about loudspeaker T/S parameters:
https://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/
Here's a quote from the section on Vas:
"Vas is one of the trickiest parameters to measure because air pressure changes relative to humidity and temperature — a precisely controlled lab environment is essential."
 
"Blood Pressure"

10 points in increased blood pressure is about a 10% decrease in hearing acuity.

My hearing got dramatically better when taking Blood Pressure reducing medication.

So driving across town through rush hour traffic to listen to a system but it doesn't sound that good?

I wonder why?
 
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