Update on new EMIT/EMIM Diaphragms
- Thread starter Maxamillion
- Start date
- Status
Maxamillion
Super Member
What my RS2bs REALLY look like!
OK, I received the mic mixer, hooked up the Behringer ECM8000 mic, and took some measurements. It seems that some of the noise/dips/peaks I was seeing were artifacts of the RS SPL meter! Using the Behringer mic with it's calibration file produced the plot below. This is pink noise, 1/6th octave resolution, ear level, 9 feet from the right speaker.
I think the plot looks excellent, especially for an in-room measurement. I think we can say for certain that the Graz diaphragms can be used without crossover mods, as my crossover uses all stock component values (upgraded in quality, of course).
Time to listen!
OK, I received the mic mixer, hooked up the Behringer ECM8000 mic, and took some measurements. It seems that some of the noise/dips/peaks I was seeing were artifacts of the RS SPL meter! Using the Behringer mic with it's calibration file produced the plot below. This is pink noise, 1/6th octave resolution, ear level, 9 feet from the right speaker.
I think the plot looks excellent, especially for an in-room measurement. I think we can say for certain that the Graz diaphragms can be used without crossover mods, as my crossover uses all stock component values (upgraded in quality, of course).
Time to listen!
Attachments
Maxamillion
Super Member
Yeah, the LF stuff is from the room. The frequencies match right up with what would be predicted based on my room dimensions. I can certainly do more in terms of bass traps - I have a couple of RealTraps Minitraps, but something bigger for the corners may be in order.
In any case, the midrange region looks nice and flat (and that's what this thread is all about, after all). :yes:
In any case, the midrange region looks nice and flat (and that's what this thread is all about, after all). :yes:
Maxamillion
Super Member
I played around with the LF Eq settings and added a bit to the "Contour" setting, filling in the upper bass area a bit. The sound is fuller this way, and just about perfect to my taste. I like the tweeters shelved down a little as you can see from this plot. This is taken 9 feet in front of the right speaker, at ear height.
Here is the FR plot, standard and expanded as Dobbhill requested. Enjoy.
Here is the FR plot, standard and expanded as Dobbhill requested. Enjoy.
Attachments
Last edited:
Maxamillion
Super Member
Both Speakers, Listening Position
After a little further tweaking, this is about as good as I can get it with my Graz-ed RS2bs, both speakers playing, from the listening position 11.5' from each speaker. The plots below are from the listening position, mic at ear level, pink noise.
The first plot is 1/3 octave resolution (what most say our ears hear) and the second is 1/24 octave resolution (for when you want to see all the scary dips and peaks, but we fortunately can't hear them all!).
Pretty good, I think (and it sounds good too). Seems like some of the peaks and dips in the single speaker plot cancel each other out when both speakers are playing. I have the speakers facing straight ahead, with only ~5 degrees of toe-in. Just need to work on that 30Hz peak - more bass traps, honey!! :bash:
After a little further tweaking, this is about as good as I can get it with my Graz-ed RS2bs, both speakers playing, from the listening position 11.5' from each speaker. The plots below are from the listening position, mic at ear level, pink noise.
The first plot is 1/3 octave resolution (what most say our ears hear) and the second is 1/24 octave resolution (for when you want to see all the scary dips and peaks, but we fortunately can't hear them all!).
Pretty good, I think (and it sounds good too). Seems like some of the peaks and dips in the single speaker plot cancel each other out when both speakers are playing. I have the speakers facing straight ahead, with only ~5 degrees of toe-in. Just need to work on that 30Hz peak - more bass traps, honey!! :bash:
Attachments
Last edited:
jkrichards
New Member
I would like to test these also. I am running RS1b with a homebrew 250 watt tube amp on the top with a 6500 UREI on the bottom using a homebrew preamp. I am also running a pair of SW210 Servo subs. I am a vinyl freak and love the live sound you get from these speakers. My EMIMS keep breaking at the frame edge from normal vibration of the membrane. I have been repairing them but it's a real pain. I have been a sound engineer for 30 years and do allot of live sound work as well as studio work and have all the test gear needed to do measurements as well as a trained ear.
I would need 14 of these. I would have no problems purchasing them to do testing for everyone.
Jeff
I would need 14 of these. I would have no problems purchasing them to do testing for everyone.
Jeff
Maxamillion
Super Member
Well, my testing is complete, so have at it. At this point I'm just enjoying the speakers - they sound incredibly good, and the new EMIMs are a big part of why. I doubt they will ever be replaced in my main system, even if I hit the lottery.
I know Graz was thinking about some potential modifications based on my feedback and that from another test location in Australia, mostly to make the install more foolproof and to perhaps address the excursion issue at high volumes. For what it's worth, using NdFeB EMIMs (which have a slightly larger gap than the SmCo) and my homemade spacers, I don't have any excursion issue at the volumes I would ever use (up to ~100dB or so).
Last I heard (two weeks ago) Graz had an equipment issue and was awaiting some replacement parts for one of his machines, then he was planning to start limited production, I believe.
I know Graz was thinking about some potential modifications based on my feedback and that from another test location in Australia, mostly to make the install more foolproof and to perhaps address the excursion issue at high volumes. For what it's worth, using NdFeB EMIMs (which have a slightly larger gap than the SmCo) and my homemade spacers, I don't have any excursion issue at the volumes I would ever use (up to ~100dB or so).
Last I heard (two weeks ago) Graz had an equipment issue and was awaiting some replacement parts for one of his machines, then he was planning to start limited production, I believe.
Great follow-ups in the post. I've been away for a bit, so maybe someone can provide a summary of sort sort? In addition, here are a couple of questions:
1. Can someone post the diaphragm replacement instructions from Infinity that were mentioned several times, but not posted?
2. Will Graz's EMIM diaphragms also replace the Rev D that were used in the IRS Beta's.
3. Can someone post a photo of the diaphragm; it would be nice to see this thing after waiting for so long!
4. Any sense of how much longer until the first paying customer gets one? and how much they will cost?
5. Are these something he is going to continually improve or once developed he is moving on to something else?
This is a remarkable achievement to say the least. Thanks to everyone involved and of course to the genius himself.
1. Can someone post the diaphragm replacement instructions from Infinity that were mentioned several times, but not posted?
2. Will Graz's EMIM diaphragms also replace the Rev D that were used in the IRS Beta's.
3. Can someone post a photo of the diaphragm; it would be nice to see this thing after waiting for so long!
4. Any sense of how much longer until the first paying customer gets one? and how much they will cost?
5. Are these something he is going to continually improve or once developed he is moving on to something else?
This is a remarkable achievement to say the least. Thanks to everyone involved and of course to the genius himself.
I had asked if he had any samples of QLS EMIT diaphrams, and the question has not been answered and if he would like a sample I have a spare one that I would donate. I don't know if he needs a brand new on or used one. On that subject does anyone need to see how to replace a new Diaphram in a EMIT part number 751-0625, as I have been able to get some new ones and am right now about to replace one. I can if needed document replacing it but to be honest it is pretty straight forward, all you need is some long skinny studs to make sure when you place the back magnet plate on it stays lined up with the front magnet plate, those magnets are very strong and you can not hold it straight with your bare hands. The diaphram I got OEM has the writing on it that says "Line tweeter 76-38", and I got them directly from Infinity. That being said getting them from Harman Kardon is like pulling teeth, and I have quite a few pairs of QLS series speakers and if the price is right would be interested in some more depending on the cost of course, I have found it in some cases to be able to find the whole speakers pretty cheap I just would hate to have to steal any from some of my other pairs as I have just about got all of them repaired and functioning. Now what I really would like to see is a company make the QLS series dome mids, because those are what I find to be very much in demand.
Replacing a new EMIT diaphram in QLS driver
I replaced the EMIT diaphram in the QLS driver and will post the how to in a new thread in case anyone wants to know how to do it quickly, about a 10 minute job. This is the same method to do any of the EMIT or EMIM drivers.
I replaced the EMIT diaphram in the QLS driver and will post the how to in a new thread in case anyone wants to know how to do it quickly, about a 10 minute job. This is the same method to do any of the EMIT or EMIM drivers.
Sorry for my long absense here. I have been deep in problems with a tooling issue for some new level of Apogee ribbons (5 types) I have been working on for about 6 months. Apogee Acoustics is a very small business in 2010, and the ribbon manufacturing workshop can only run one type of foil at any one time (to save expensive mistakes!). About 5 weeks ago I setup for what I believed would be a routine production task of something that I had prototyped earlier. The tooling failed, and it has taken 4 weeks of serious work to redevelop it to a level of tight tolerance accuracy required. This was left-field believe me! Unfortunately this has left me making regular distant trips to others to access unusual machinery I don't have to make the new tooling, whilst the ribbon workshop has been in virtual stasis whilst the several incarnations of the required tooling have been tested.
7 parallel prototypes has been a strain, and my installation partners have been suffering waiting, as has the bank balance! We are all behind, believe me I would prefer to have everybody happy...
So here is where I am at;-
1) I have been clearing my Apogee backlog over the last week, and continue to do so for the next few days, then as of Tuesday plan to switch to EMIM KLM5/2 pre-production for a few days. these things are hand made, tight tolerance like all the parts I make, and take a while to make, gone are the days of "mass" production backed up by production speakers. These will be very small runs to solve clients problems, made to perform - and last. These KLM5/2's are similar to "MAXAMILLION"'s ribbons, being a couple of details different. Details - a couple of mm's of detail changes in construction, fractionally higher mass, slightly different resistance.
2) The EMIM KLM5/2 ribbons are going to 2 other installations the last week of April. Once there I will get their feedback, and if all is still good I will make this a standard product for a limited first official release, recommended for all of the higher order xover EMIM's. I say this because I cannot think of why anybody would have crossed one over at the low (claimed) levels on an RS4.5, like the ones I have down here - the bass cones are working well below spec even when the EMIM's are at their excursion limit, original OR the new ones when I have been running them actively second order/150hz. They sound good BUT cannot reach the dico volumes you would expect of a speaker with 2 12" drivers in there! The maths just don't stack up.
3) Once feedback has come in from the first release, I will make this a regular stock product, generally available. As/if people buy them I will schedule more into my production.
4) I am looking at possibly offering more than one type of EMIM driver. Nothing confirmed yet, but am exploring possibilities in the background.
Once I have gotten good results from the first release more of you (and me) will be happy.
Now - email. I hate email. Really. I hate it. 2nd to texting, it is the most ridiculous communication available. Several have emailed me looking to discuss Infinity with huge, detailed and interesting emails, and at the speed I type (real slow) I prefer to schedule phone calls AFTER I actually get to having a product to release! All of this chatter so far is speculative. And believe me, with a 5 week lag in Apogee work I have enough emails from installers and clients to keep a slow typist occupied when not in the workshop! I will look through emails and answer some of those long ones with a request for a land line phone number and time window (when I'm awake) to call. Only when I have a product.
Private messages. Please - I don't get time to look at these for the sites I visit. I don't "do" pm's! Email is better for this type of correspondence.
Images of products. I really don't want them on here, as the parts I finally release may be different, and I would prefer people listen with their ears than eyes
What more can I say? Lots of hours and resources have been and continue going to the Infinity cause (honest) - I will deliver, but don't want to serve up anything less than what you deserve - and I am happy to put my name to as a retrofit-upgrade driver...
More here and on the Apogee forum soon!
Take care - Graz
7 parallel prototypes has been a strain, and my installation partners have been suffering waiting, as has the bank balance! We are all behind, believe me I would prefer to have everybody happy...
So here is where I am at;-
1) I have been clearing my Apogee backlog over the last week, and continue to do so for the next few days, then as of Tuesday plan to switch to EMIM KLM5/2 pre-production for a few days. these things are hand made, tight tolerance like all the parts I make, and take a while to make, gone are the days of "mass" production backed up by production speakers. These will be very small runs to solve clients problems, made to perform - and last. These KLM5/2's are similar to "MAXAMILLION"'s ribbons, being a couple of details different. Details - a couple of mm's of detail changes in construction, fractionally higher mass, slightly different resistance.
2) The EMIM KLM5/2 ribbons are going to 2 other installations the last week of April. Once there I will get their feedback, and if all is still good I will make this a standard product for a limited first official release, recommended for all of the higher order xover EMIM's. I say this because I cannot think of why anybody would have crossed one over at the low (claimed) levels on an RS4.5, like the ones I have down here - the bass cones are working well below spec even when the EMIM's are at their excursion limit, original OR the new ones when I have been running them actively second order/150hz. They sound good BUT cannot reach the dico volumes you would expect of a speaker with 2 12" drivers in there! The maths just don't stack up.
3) Once feedback has come in from the first release, I will make this a regular stock product, generally available. As/if people buy them I will schedule more into my production.
4) I am looking at possibly offering more than one type of EMIM driver. Nothing confirmed yet, but am exploring possibilities in the background.
Once I have gotten good results from the first release more of you (and me) will be happy.
Now - email. I hate email. Really. I hate it. 2nd to texting, it is the most ridiculous communication available. Several have emailed me looking to discuss Infinity with huge, detailed and interesting emails, and at the speed I type (real slow) I prefer to schedule phone calls AFTER I actually get to having a product to release! All of this chatter so far is speculative. And believe me, with a 5 week lag in Apogee work I have enough emails from installers and clients to keep a slow typist occupied when not in the workshop! I will look through emails and answer some of those long ones with a request for a land line phone number and time window (when I'm awake) to call. Only when I have a product.
Private messages. Please - I don't get time to look at these for the sites I visit. I don't "do" pm's! Email is better for this type of correspondence.
Images of products. I really don't want them on here, as the parts I finally release may be different, and I would prefer people listen with their ears than eyes
What more can I say? Lots of hours and resources have been and continue going to the Infinity cause (honest) - I will deliver, but don't want to serve up anything less than what you deserve - and I am happy to put my name to as a retrofit-upgrade driver...
More here and on the Apogee forum soon!
Take care - Graz
Last edited:
Newk_Yuler
Active Member
LOL. The RS 4.5s... WTF were they thinking? :screwy:
(Said a guy with a pair in a closet...)
Maxamillion
Super Member
If the 4.5 is like the RSIIb, the Infinity data sheets say they cross at 150Hz, but they actually cross at ~250Hz with the passive crossovers, based on my measurements.
- Status