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Upgrading from 2M Red

A

axle2152

New Member
Hi everyone!

So here's what I got, the problem I am noticing in my setup and some possible upgrade paths I am considering. I have a Project Debut Carbon that came with the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge and stylus, also went with the acrylic platter and using the Project Phono Box S. Sounds pretty good but I am definitely getting a degree of distortion and most records display a good bit of inner groove distortion. I had previously thought it might have been an alignment issue, so I checked and tweaked alignment (which was previously factory set) and noticed pretty much no change.

I have listened to a few demos on YouTube and while I am well aware of YouTube's compression, I can definitely tell a difference in the 2M Blue and 2M Bronze in comparison to my setup, they are definitely much clearer and less distortion. The interesting thing is that most demos switch the cartridge and not the styli, so I'm not getting to see the actual difference between styli. I can say the difference between 2m red cart and 2m bronze is there but fairly minimal. I do find, at least with previous experience the difference in styli can be bigger than the cartridge itself. The other thing is no one does a demo on how these upper end cart/styli perform on inner groove distortion.

Anyway, the big question I have is would it be better to get a 2M Bronze stylus and keep the 2M red cart, or replace the cart with a 2M Bronze cart and stylus? I also thought about the Audio Technica AT440MLa, seemed to have a pretty bright and wider sound over the 2M red. Not saying the 2M red is bad, it's pretty good for the price, likewise opinions and tastes vary. Likewise I would love to have a 2M Black but that's way out of my budget and the 2M Bronze is also pretty pricey.

Appreciate any recommendations you guys might have. Thanks.
 
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Hello and welcome,
I don't believe you can swap the 2m Red stylus with the Bronze and have your cart work properly. I think it's the Red <> Blue and Bronze <> Black combos that can be swapped.

Asking about if a cart sounds good, bright, warm is sometimes subjective to the listener's taste and sound system, much like "what's your favorite fast food hamburger". That being said, I listen to rock, electronic dance (80's - present), punk, modern rock, metal, etc. The AT440MLa or b is probably the go to cartridge for the price range.
 
The Bronze stylus WILL fit on the Red body and work just fine. You just won't get the full benefit because the internals of the Bronze and Black are upgraded compared to the Red and Blue bodies. How much the internals are different and if you can hear the difference is up to each listener. But it will work just fine and it will be an upgrade due to the better stylus profile of the Bronze tip.
 
Can't address your question directly but I can say my 2M Black is my daily driver over several other carts I own. I sold my AT440MLa ..... didn't trip my trigger.
My preference is for a brighter sound ... that's my bias....
 
GPJeff said:
Hello and welcome,
I don't believe you can swap the 2m Red stylus with the Bronze and have your cart work properly. I think it's the Red <> Blue and Bronze <> Black combos that can be swapped.

Asking about if a cart sounds good, bright, warm is sometimes subjective to the listener's taste and sound system, much like "what's your favorite fast food hamburger". That being said, I listen to rock, electronic dance (80's - present), punk, modern rock, metal, etc. The AT440MLa or b is probably the go to cartridge for the price range.
Click to expand...

I do believe you are correct, they will fit and they will play but something is different in the specs. I did come across someone who wrote a review on here on the whole 2M line up but...the links are dead as it was a thread from 2011, and the guy actually did go test the bronze and black styli on the red/blue cartridges...

Any idea what I might expect on the troubles I have with IGD? I'm going to re-check the alignment of the cartridge before I pull the trigger on getting the bronze.

Thanks for the info and the AT440MLa definitely is a worthy contender, especially for the price...really comes down to splitting hairs.

As far as my taste in sound, I would say accuracy...Not overly embellished sound. I find the 2M red to be a bit on the muddy side, kind of muted, doesn't seem to have a lot of "pop" but that being said it was a big upgrade over all on my old Technics P-mount (I believe it had a Shure M800 cartridge with original stylus). The demos of the Bronze/Black are definitely a big step up...and a big step up in price as well...
 
The Black is not cheap but it is plenty accurate & crisp. I have no issues with IGD.
I think many carts with micro line/ SAS/ Shibata/ Stereohedron, etc styluses will be crisper than what you're used to.
If you're patient, maybe something will come around on BT. Thats how I got the 2M Black.
Also, be sure LPs are clean - that sharpens up the sound too....
 
Bob in WI said:
The Black is not cheap but it is plenty accurate & crisp. I have no issues with IGD.
I think many carts with micro line/ SAS/ Shibata/ Stereohedron, etc styluses will be crisper than what you're used to.
If you're patient, maybe something will come around on BT. Thats how I got the 2M Black.
Also, be sure LPs are clean - that sharpens up the sound too....
Click to expand...
Forgive me for my ignorance, BT is referring to what? I'll have to keep my eyes out for Bronze/Black... Since adjustments are a bit limiting on the Project turntable I think I'll stick to the Ortofon 2M line up. Been reading some threads about tonearm weight and certain cartridges not working well...More than what I would want to get into. I would think that all on the 2M line up pretty close in physical characteristics, but then again I don't know that much when it comes to all those technicalities.

Thanks for the info.
 
I used to own your table and it had the 2m red on it as well, it never quite sounded right so I swapped it for a Goldring 1042 and it was night and day better. I also owned the 2m Bronze which was matched with my Jvc ql-y5f table, great sounding cart very detailed with pretty low background noise. Although you might be able to swap out the stylus with the different bodies it's not recommended based on the different internals as stated above. You will notice a much improved/detailed sound if you switch from Red to Bronze.
 
axle2152 said:
Forgive me for my ignorance, BT is referring to what? I'll have to keep my eyes out for Bronze/Black... Since adjustments are a bit limiting on the Project turntable I think I'll stick to the Ortofon 2M line up. Been reading some threads about tonearm weight and certain cartridges not working well...More than what I would want to get into. I would think that all on the 2M line up pretty close in physical characteristics, but then again I don't know that much when it comes to all those technicalities.

Thanks for the info.
Click to expand...

yup - can get pretty technical - some of these things go way over my head.
BT = bartertown in the subcribers section of Audiokarma.
I don't know what folks are successfully running on the Debut Carbon but your plan sounds solid.
If I see something - I'll let you know.
 
Bob in WI said:
yup - can get pretty technical - some of these things go way over my head.
BT = bartertown in the subcribers section of Audiokarma.
I don't know what folks are successfully running on the Debut Carbon but your plan sounds solid.
If I see something - I'll let you know.
Click to expand...

Yep, looking at the 2M Bronze specs, pretty much identical as far as whether I will have trouble with the turntable, they weigh the same, VTA is the same (and as far as I can tell not adjustable on the carbon). Otherwise I would be leaning towards the AT440MLa, it is definitely better than the 2M red from hearing a comparison... Reading about the AT440MLa, sounds like folks have had to put shims on the tone arm to correct the VTA, probably something I'd rather not have to fool with.

So the Bronze cartridge would be a less painful upgrade, although more expensive...
 
When you did your alignment did you also pay close attention to azimuth? Azimuth is critical especially when you move up the ladder to more exotic stylii profiles. Just a thought.
 
If you haven't heard the cartridges in person you cannot tell the difference by listening on YouTube, I know you probably already know this but there is a drastic difference when listening to anything in person than listening on YouTube for instance. I know it's near impossible to audition a cartridge but by reading other people's opinions about certain carts based on what your listening tastes and close to what setup you have, can get you in the ballpark of what you might want for a cartridge.
axle2152 said:
Yep, looking at the 2M Bronze specs, pretty much identical as far as whether I will have trouble with the turntable, they weigh the same, VTA is the same (and as far as I can tell not adjustable on the carbon). Otherwise I would be leaning towards the AT440MLa, it is definitely better than the 2M red from hearing a comparison... Reading about the AT440MLa, sounds like folks have had to put shims on the tone arm to correct the VTA, probably something I'd rather not have to fool with.

So the Bronze cartridge would be a less painful upgrade, although more expensive...
Click to expand...
u
 
Bugler said:
When you did your alignment did you also pay close attention to azimuth? Azimuth is critical especially when you move up the ladder to more exotic stylii profiles. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Not adjustable on the Project Debut, I can check it...and will check it when I re-check the alignment. The good news would be since it is the same line of cartridges, shouldn't be an issues, unless I screw something up in the process of swapping cartridges...

Audiofreak71 said:
If you haven't heard the cartridges in person you cannot tell the difference by listening on YouTube, I know you probably already know this but there is a drastic difference when listening to anything in person than listening on YouTube for instance. I know it's near impossible to audition a cartridge but by reading other people's opinions about certain carts based on what your listening tastes and close to what setup you have, can get you in the ballpark of what you might want for a cartridge.

u
Click to expand...

Yes you're correct, even on HD I can still tell it is compressed audio, now I can tell a difference on YouTube between the 2M red and AT440MLa, that comparison sticks out pretty well, but does become futile say, comparing a 2M Bronze and 2M Black, or even the blue... I would also venture to say it becomes harder to tell the difference when you get to the higher end stuff.. I haven't found too many demos where you could download the uncompressed audio and even that can be a bit dicey, what sound card did they use, it is level matched, etc, etc
 
If azimuth is off it can be adjusted using shims etc. It's that important.
Incidentally the AT 440MLa has been discontinued for quite a while, replaced by 440MLb. In fact I think the MLb is now being replaced by a new VM series. (I think)
 
I think you would be well-served simply to upgrade to the Blue stylus, keeping the cartridge body of the Red. Aside from the color of the logo, they are exactly the same. And the Blue stylus is already a major step up in performance. To move up to the Bronze stylus without the upgraded body is like driving a Corvette on low-octane regular. It won't perform as well as it should. And without the proper adjustments to VTA and azimuth, you'll be running that 'Vette on bald tires.
 
justjed2 said:
I think you would be well-served simply to upgrade to the Blue stylus, keeping the cartridge body of the Red. Aside from the color of the logo, they are exactly the same. And the Blue stylus is already a major step up in performance. To move up to the Bronze stylus without the upgraded body is like driving a Corvette on low-octane regular. It won't perform as well as it should. And without the proper adjustments to VTA and azimuth, you'll be running that 'Vette on bald tires.
Click to expand...

Would it be wrong to make the assumption that on the Project Debut Carbon that the VTA, azmuth, etc would not be what it should be? The upgraded body seems to have pretty much the same specifications in terms of cartridge weight, VTA...

Thanks for all the info, if I hadn't started a thread on here I may very well be blowing a lot of money and be disappointed...

Here's the specs on the Red
https://www.ortofon.com/ortofon-2m-red-p-317-n-1579
Here's the specs on the Bronze
https://www.ortofon.com/ortofon-2m-bronze-p-325-n-1579

The two seem pretty similar... One thing is the tracking force is a bit lighter... 1.5g on the bronze and 1.8 for the red. That much is adjustable, but in the grand scheme of things, how that effects everything else is beyond my pay grade.

Would there be anything not shown that isn't being taken in consideration?

I do agree that the bronze stylus on the red body at this point would be understating performance, but I would think the IGD problem would still go away...Looking around seemed people complain of IGD on the red a good bit.

On the other hand running a vette with bald tires isn't all bad if you're in an empty parking lot :P
 
Well finally got around to checking everything, visually with magnification alignment is fine using the protractor I printed, azimuth, best I can tell using a mirror is fine, anti-skate is fine checked with a record that had a blank side. VTA should be fine unless the cantilever is damaged. This being a Project turntable with the carbon tonearm, unless it is an error on their part the VTA should be right on 20 degrees. So with that being said I don't know a reason why I can't go the bronze body and stylus. Aside from the technicals being superior to the red, they're the same body, weight, VTA, just a more compliant cartridge and slightly lighter tracking.

Only thing I did do was re-balance the arm and set the tracking force to 1.8 g. Inner groove distortion is still there, even changed the capacitance which really just dulled out the high end a bit, but not that much.
 
The only way to tell how it will sound with the Bronze is to just go for it. Let us know, I'd be interested in your results.
 
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