Upgrading from 2M Red

[MCM_Fan]

Would it be wrong to make the assumption that on the Project Debut Carbon that the VTA, azmuth, etc would not be what it should be? The upgraded body seems to have pretty much the same specifications in terms of cartridge weight, VTA...

Thanks for all the info, if I hadn't started a thread on here I may very well be blowing a lot of money and be disappointed...

Here's the specs on the Red
https://www.ortofon.com/ortofon-2m-red-p-317-n-1579
Here's the specs on the Bronze
https://www.ortofon.com/ortofon-2m-bronze-p-325-n-1579

The two seem pretty similar... One thing is the tracking force is a bit lighter... 1.5g on the bronze and 1.8 for the red. That much is adjustable, but in the grand scheme of things, how that effects everything else is beyond my pay grade.

Would there be anything not shown that isn't being taken in consideration?

I do agree that the bronze stylus on the red body at this point would be understating performance, but I would think the IGD problem would still go away...Looking around seemed people complain of IGD on the red a good bit.

On the other hand running a vette with bald tires isn't all bad if you're in an empty parking lot

First, standard disclaimer: I don't own any Ortofon cartridges and have only heard the Red briefly at a local dealer.

That said, it seems like you're uncomfortable mounting and aligning the cartridge yourself, and are looking at moving up the Ortofon range as a hassle free, plug-and-play upgrade path. I'm not sure where you are located, but where I'm at, if you buy a new cartridge from a local dealer, they will install it on your table and align it for free. I don't believe I've ever seen the Ortofons discounted. So, if you have dealer within driving distance, that would be the way to go.

Of course, that would be the case with other cartridge brands, too. The only difference is you can sometimes get online discounts on other brands, but that only makes sense if you're comfortable doing the installation and alignment yourself - or are willing to pay a professional to do it for you (which usually wipes out any savings you got buying the cartridge online).

Edit: Oops, didn't see your most recent post when I was typing this up. It sounds like you have the tools and understanding to install and align a cartridge yourself. If so, why limit yourself to the Ortofon brand? Not that there is anything wrong with them (that I know of - no personal experience), but if you're willing to consider other brands, it opens up a whole world of possibilities.

 

[Audiofreak71]

Like I said in my previous post, I have owned the 2m red and the 2m Bronze, I didn't like the 2m red at all as it always seemed off to me highs were over exaggerated and it suffered the same igd everyone else complains about. But the 2M Bronze is in a whole different league, it's detailed in a way that has to be truly heard to understand what I mean, so with that said I'm sure you would be more than happy with the 2m Bronze. Also like others have stated why not explore other brands?, there are so many good ones and no reason to limit yourself to just one brand, LP gear has some really good ones for example at reasonable prices that punch way above there weight.

 

[axle2152]

First, standard disclaimer: I don't own any Ortofon cartridges and have only heard the Red briefly at a local dealer.

That said, it seems like you're uncomfortable mounting and aligning the cartridge yourself, and are looking at moving up the Ortofon range as a hassle free, plug-and-play upgrade path. I'm not sure where you are located, but where I'm at, if you buy a new cartridge from a local dealer, they will install it on your table and align it for free. I don't believe I've ever seen the Ortofons discounted. So, if you have dealer within driving distance, that would be the way to go.

Of course, that would be the case with other cartridge brands, too. The only difference is you can sometimes get online discounts on other brands, but that only makes sense if you're comfortable doing the installation and alignment yourself - or are willing to pay a professional to do it for you (which usually wipes out any savings you got buying the cartridge online).

Edit: Oops, didn't see your most recent post when I was typing this up. It sounds like you have the tools and understanding to install and align a cartridge yourself. If so, why limit yourself to the Ortofon brand? Not that there is anything wrong with them (that I know of - no personal experience), but if you're willing to consider other brands, it opens up a whole world of possibilities.

Like I said in my previous post, I have owned the 2m red and the 2m Bronze, I didn't like the 2m red at all as it always seemed off to me highs were over exaggerated and it suffered the same igd everyone else complains about. But the 2M Bronze is in a whole different league, it's detailed in a way that has to be truly heard to understand what I mean, so with that said I'm sure you would be more than happy with the 2m Bronze. Also like others have stated why not explore other brands?, there are so many good ones and no reason to limit yourself to just one brand, LP gear has some really good ones for example at reasonable prices that punch way above there weight.

I can do basic things, probably not to the level of expertise as some. The reason I choose to stick to Ortofon is I basically just need to mount and align the cartridge...no worry about VTA, azimuth because the headshell is also the tonearm and offer no built in adjustment. The few threads and information I did find on the AT440MLa/d is that shim are required on the carbon tonearm and some folks claimed it didn't track well. This is all to me, well over my head when it comes to making the determination of does this cartridge work well with my turntable... So I'm putting my faith in Project that they engineered their TT to work well with the 2M line-up... In short I'm lazy and impatient lol

I also read many many posts about how people are just blown away by the bronze. I also finally, by chance, found HiFiSquarepants lossless comparison between the Blue/Bronze/Black (which they were with their appropriate bodies) and with a blind test (he had them labeled A,B, C) B sounded the best after going back and forth several times before I later found out that B was indeed the Bronze... That being said, could mean a hill of beans how it will found on my TT and Preamp...Speakers, I'm pretty happy with, they are good at reminding you, yes this is compressed MP3. I got a set of Klipsch RF8 I recall the model correctly, a little early in the morning. Anyway, they're pretty good and a good spot in this room, but the speakers had been the biggest upgrade in sound quality to this point, next to the pre-amp...

So at this point I went and took the plunge and am getting the 2M Bronze body and stylus.

 

[axle2152]

Ok so I went ahead and got the 2M Bronze, I have it installed and hands down much better, no question. However, hit a few bumps. One I broke a wire taking the plugs off the 2M red, was lucky that I was able to resolder the wire back to the plug....and the 2M red literally fell apart. So I guess I'm a bull in a china closet. The cartridge tracks much better and inner groove distortion is nearly gone or very slight if noticeable. I've read that that there is a break-in time of some sort....

One thing that I am worried about is that something else might have happened. The 2M Bronze tracks a little lighter but from everything I have read everything is pretty much the same, alignment went smooth but the anti-skate is way off, I had to add extra weight to keep the anti-skate where it should be...and mind you this is a Project Debut Carbon so I had to improvise. Anyone making these upgrades had to make any changes to the anti-skate? Or have a I done something? I have looked at the tone arm and I cannot see anything obvious.... Other than that, plays fine and sounds much better...

See my later posts for the samples, had issues with clipping...

 

[Bob in WI]

Good luck with the Bronze. Changing carts should not affect anti skate in any meaningful way.
Maybe you bumped something...

 

[axle2152]

Good luck with the Bronze. Changing carts should not affect anti skate in any meaningful way.
Maybe you bumped something...

What is the correct way to check anti-skate. I have heard to find a blank record and see if the tonearm stays where it is or goes inward to the center or vice versa...others say simply apply the same force as tracking force... 1.5g tracking force = 1.5g anti-skate...

What could I have bumped? The Project Debut has very little adjustments other than anti-skate and tracking force...

I'll also have to find some other "demos" there's clipping on both of the samples, so I will look at that tonight, otherwise it is a night and day difference... I did before replacing the red change capacitance from 100 pf to 440 pf and very slight changes and really only noticed IGD at the end, some silibance on some albums (Michael Jackson's Thriller was terrible on the red, played on the bronze, nearly flawless...well for a 35 year old record).

 

[Audiofreak71]

What is the correct way to check anti-skate. I have heard to find a blank record and see if the tonearm stays where it is or goes inward to the center or vice versa...others say simply apply the same force as tracking force... 1.5g tracking force = 1.5g anti-skate...

What could I have bumped? The Project Debut has very little adjustments other than anti-skate and tracking force...

I'll also have to find some other "demos" there's clipping on both of the samples, so I will look at that tonight, otherwise it is a night and day difference... I did before replacing the red change capacitance from 100 pf to 440 pf and very slight changes and really only noticed IGD at the end, some silibance on some albums (Michael Jackson's Thriller was terrible on the red, played on the bronze, nearly flawless...well for a 35 year old record).

Glad your enjoying the Bronze, we told you it was a great cart and now your seeing for yourself. As for the adjustments, antiskate etc, just try rechecking your counter weight and anti skate, best way is if you have a scale, I use a digital scale and if works great. If your going by just the numbers on your counter weight that's not always an exact measurement so best to have a scale to make sure it's exact. Hope this helps.

 

[axle2152]

Glad your enjoying the Bronze, we told you it was a great cart and now your seeing for yourself. As for the adjustments, antiskate etc, just try rechecking your counter weight and anti skate, best way is if you have a scale, I use a digital scale and if works great. If your going by just the numbers on your counter weight that's not always an exact measurement so best to have a scale to make sure it's exact. Hope this helps.

Well the 2M Bronze did come with a tracking force gauge and did find that it was tracking heavier than the weight on the turntable stated about 0.3 g more. So I put the anti-skate weight, which has three positions, to the inner most (least weight) seems 1.4-1.5 g tracking force is the fine line and some seem to lean to less anti skate -- who knows. My concern only was how can you tell if the anti skate needs adjusting in my case? I don't plan on spending a lot of money scales, etcs....

 

[Audiofreak71]

Well the 2M Bronze did come with a tracking force gauge and did find that it was tracking heavier than the weight on the turntable stated about 0.3 g more. So I put the anti-skate weight, which has three positions, to the inner most (least weight) seems 1.4-1.5 g tracking force is the fine line and some seem to lean to less anti skate -- who knows. My concern only was how can you tell if the anti skate needs adjusting in my case? I don't plan on spending a lot of money scales, etcs....

Anti Skate is a very touchy thing, literally, I'll let someone on here more qualified than me chime in hopefully with some advice we both can learn from, but I'll add this, I either go by the counter weight same as antiskate method unless I hear something funny then I adjust accordingly. There are so many variables to consider when doing the antiskate it's just really hard to come to a conclusive answer as to what is absolutely right, but like I stated earlier, hopefully a more knowledgeable AK guru can chime in and help out. One more thing to add is the Azimuth that I believe was mentioned above, if that is off that can cause all sorts of problems IGD etc, check that if you can.

 

[axle2152]

Anti Skate is a very touchy thing, literally, I'll let someone on here more qualified than me chime in hopefully with some advice we both can learn from, but I'll add this, I either go by the counter weight same as antiskate method unless I hear something funny then I adjust accordingly. There are so many variables to consider when doing the antiskate it's just really hard to come to a conclusive answer as to what is absolutely right, but like I stated earlier, hopefully a more knowledgeable AK guru can chime in and help out. One more thing to add is the Azimuth that I believe was mentioned above, if that is off that can cause all sorts of problems IGD etc, check that if you can.

Only thing I can say is that the 2M bronze sounds way better, particularly in the inner grooves...but I also can't say I have a baseline on what the 2M bronze should sound like...

For those interested I re-did my sample comparing the 2M red stylus vs the 2M bronze stylus, both using the bronze cartridge. I will say that ultimately you do get the bigger band for your buck on the stylus only BUT if you will gain a bit better channel separation performance on loud stracks with heavy stereo imaging, it's simply better...so for the small price difference between the bronze stylus and the whole bronze package, just get the bronze package and deal with the risks and consequences of changing equipment. It was my first go and luckily I know enough to solder the white wire back on after breaking it and ruining the 2M red cartridge (as stated before the stylus lived on).

This is a short excerpt from nearly the end, so almost to the lead on of Baz Luhrmann's "Sunscreen" so there is a degree of IGD, but one is way obvious, it is a fairly worn record and kind of cut loudly but one of the worst IGD offenders I have that came to mind....

Samples are recorded at 192kHz / 24-bit in WAV, so download them first...

2M Red http://axle.servebeer.com/wp-content/uploads/2MRedSample.wav
2M Bronze http://axle.servebeer.com/wp-content/uploads/2MBronzeSample.wav

 

[cratz2]

Well, no doubt your Bronze sounds better than your Red. I can only listen with headphones at the moment at realistic volumes which reveals some things (like detail and imperfections but obscures somethings like scale, soundstage and the more visceral aspects of listening. I'll listen with my speakers in a bit.

Not quite apples and apples but I'll do a comparison of my Red and my AT12Sa. The biggest difference I notice is with the Red, everything sounds just a bit bigger, as if the sound is coming from bigger speakers that are spread further apart. I do notice a bit more distortion, particularly on the last couple minutes of a particularly long album side and for me, it seems it's more noticeable on quieter passages. The Red also maximizes minor surface noise than the AT, not quite to the point that it's distracting, but when I listen to a more worn than average LP, I'll do it with the AT. I end up using the Red for what I call produced music meaning Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac, Eagles etc... and the AT for most classical and the sorts of jazz that are mostly acoustic.

The key is, with the Red on two different turntables, I've never heard the distortion as prevalently as many listeners. Maybe I'm not keyed in for it or maybe it's lack of quality control or something else, but it's never seemed to bother me too much.

 

[cratz2]

JVC JL-A20 (late 70s, belt drive, S-arm)
U-Turn Pluto phono stage
Ortofon 2M Red @ 1.8 grams (set with scale)
Audio Technica AT12Sa Shibata stylus @ 2.0 grams

Recorded with a Zoom H2 recorder direct from the Pluto.

I tend to set my anti-skate with levels on the recorder. If one channel is consistently louder than the other, I adjust. For me on this table, that is usually a couple indicated marks less than the VTF so 1.8 grams is about 1.5 on the anti-skate.

Ortofon Red https://clyp.it/uwxr4trt

AT12Sa https://clyp.it/et3zagdc

 

[axle2152]

JVC JL-A20 (late 70s, belt drive, S-arm)
U-Turn Pluto phono stage
Ortofon 2M Red @ 1.8 grams (set with scale)
Audio Technica AT12Sa Shibata stylus @ 2.0 grams

Recorded with a Zoom H2 recorder direct from the Pluto.

I tend to set my anti-skate with levels on the recorder. If one channel is consistently louder than the other, I adjust. For me on this table, that is usually a couple indicated marks less than the VTF so 1.8 grams is about 1.5 on the anti-skate.

Ortofon Red https://clyp.it/uwxr4trt

AT12Sa https://clyp.it/et3zagdc

Now honestly I just re-recorded this album just out of coincidence...no joke...but yes this is much easier to use than using my webserver which frankly if a bunch of people start downloading it would just bog it down....

Same song at the same spot....

Ortofon 2M Bronze https://clyp.it/zcckzjkm

 

[cratz2]

We're not home at the moment, but try recording the Red at the same point when you get the chance so we can have a your Red vs my Red comparison.

 

[axle2152]

Well I had a previous recording but the record must have been quite dirty. I also noticed that Ortofon has done something to make it difficult to put the red stylus on the bronze body...so not sure how everyone on YouTube has been doing that, maybe a recent change...

Anyway, red stylus on bronze body... Only thing I can quickly pick out is the "S" are worse on the red...

https://clyp.it/aeu4f4gh