Upgrading Valencia 846A crossovers

[EliFisk]

Hi

Recently picked up a very nice pair of Altec Valencia 846A speakers and have been very impressed with them. Driving them with a (NOS Valves) rebuilt Scott 222C.

The crossover (and drivers) are original and in good condition.

Rather than rebuilding the N-800 XOs, I'm thinking of upgrading to new and wonder what felllow AKers recommend.

Does anyone have experience with replacement crossovers from Werner Jagusch in Germany?

Recommendations greatly appreciated.

 

[dc270]

DIY and the Altec Hoastboard are also good resources. We have very talented people here as well. There are a lot of options here, upgraded caps, inductors, resistors, etc can all be considered- Do not be afraid to leave stock, upgrades are not always improvements!! What is it are your trying to obtain?
DC

 

[EliFisk]

I suspect that after 50 years, the N-800 capacitor and other components have drifted off their specs and that the Valencias, good as they sound now, would sound still better with rebuilt crossovers.

The N-800 CO is in a steel box riveted shut and, according to some, it is better to simply build a new XO with modern coils, caps, etc.

The upgrade board from Germany is one option and I'm interested in what other AKers recommend for the Valencias.

This is my first pair of Altecs and I can see why so many folks love these speakers.

 

[Joe Roberts]

So, you are standing at the edge of the rabbit hole, tempted to jump in...

Here's what I have to say, including a lot of unpopular opinions among my fellow Altec aficionados.

First, the Altec crossover sounds horrible. Probably has metallized paper caps in cardboard boxes (not even plastic), slathered in some funky tar potting compound. These caps suck, no two ways about it.

But if you dig them out and replace with better caps, then voila....the inductors also sound bad. How? Who knows, but I stand by my experiences. Stock Altec crossovers are among the rare audio devices that can be muddy and harsh at the same time and every part is nasty!



The other thing that is really dubious is the L pad. Open it up and clean it, or better yet, figure out where you want it to be then measure and replace with discrete resistors. A corroded old Altec L pad that hasn't been turned three times in 50 years is a major source of sonic grunge.

EDIT--The tweeter control is a fixed resistor and a rheostat, not an L pad. Pop the back off and clean the pot contacts but the best thing to do is replace with a fixed resistor once you determine where it needs to be set.

The German crossover uses the right parts but it is expensive as hell. You can build something like that for a hundred bucks, EXCEPT for the autoformers, which is definitely the way to go for tweeter volume control.

Then once you get the crossover straightened out, you will have a clearer picture of the deficiencies of the 811 horn. It rings like hell and is a bit harsh. You can damp the ringing but you can't damp harsh....in fact, damping moves the horn from excitingly harsh to boringly harsh.

Zing...a red brick flies past my head, thrown by an Altec lover. Dudes, I love ALTEC, really. My bonafides as a tireless champion of ALTEC are well known.

What I would suggest for starters is to build replacement crossovers using all new parts. Use iron core inductors and oil caps for max smoothness. The oil caps are the best thing to smooth out the presentation somewhat. Russian KBG caps are pretty good but old Sprague or CD rectangular oil caps are even better. Siemens MKV or GE Dielektrol oil and polyprop motor caps are other reasonable choices. Motor caps are the easiest to find. MKVs are what that German guy seems to use. They are good but not easy to find here and can be expensive because they are hyped up.

Remove the entire wiring harness from the stock speakers and put it in a shoebox in your garage, then replace with your new creation. Fire it up.

In short, the woofer and the compression driver are excellent parts. The 811 is "OK, sorta" and the crossover and L-pad are highly dubious.

The sane thing to do is listen to them for what they are, as is (but clean or replace the L Pad). If you can't resist the urge to "improve" the system, some enhancement is possible but you will hit the ceiling with the 811 horn.

The 811 is fairly popular, but I don't know what people are thinking. The 511 is even worse. Feel free to disagree based on your ears and prior experience, but I gave up on them long ago, especially if run down to their nominal LF limit.

Finally, be aware that this is a non-renewal vintage audio resource, so don't booger them up to the point they cant be restored to original, which might be the best way to leave them. Lots of people would love them for what they are.

Another path is to use the woofer in the original box, then sit a better small format horn on top. Use the cabinet to store the 811s.

All this is food for thought on general orientations. The devil is in the details, as always.

I'd say the Valencia can give you a whiff of what an Altec based two way can offer but it is not the gourmet spread. It is a corn dog but it can be moved up to 'Hebrew National hot dog on a fresh roll' status.

 

[dc270]

It has been my experience when using the 811 & 511 horns was to cut pie shaped wedges of 1/8" thick foam and insert into the horn mouth tops and bottoms. Coating the out side with a thick rubberized "paint help and does melting a block or two ofcandle wax in to top and bottom wells of the horn lips. These horn CAN be tamed to sound good, not ring and disperse nicely!! The driver make a world of differance as well-Radian 475 PB are great with them!
DC

 

[Joe Roberts]

Ok found a pic of a naked pr of N800F on ebay. Maybe this is what is inside the mystery riveted box.

See those cardboard box caps? YUK.

That pot looks like reasonable quality, if that is what you have in yours. Might be a CTS wirewound. What I would do with that first is exercise it back and forth vigorously a few dozen times. If you can feel the contacts riding on what seems to be a wire coil, then it is wirewound, so go ahead and squirt some deoxit or cleaner spray in there. If it is carbon, hope that some motion cleans it up, i.e. not scratchy if turned while while playing.


I guess you could change out the caps for some quick improvement. Still. I wouldn't modify the original because it is a historical artifact of audio past. Sell it to some vintage freak or keep it with the speakers. Build something nice.

 

[Joe Roberts]

These horn CAN be tamed to sound good, not ring and disperse nicely!!

Some people say this...but I covered a pair in 40 packs of plasticine modeling clay from the dollar store and they still sounded harsh. Ringing is only part of the problem.

Compare to a later Emilar or Renkus-Heinz exponential, similarly priced in the used market and "descendants" of the sectorals, and the deficiencies of the Altec sectoral geometry will be obvious. I think the Renkus horns will bolt right up to an Altec cutout too.

I say play around but don't mess up nice vintage Altec gear irreversibly. I fear I'll rot in hell for all the vintage gear I "modified" before I saw the light, where they will make me listen to Sonus Fabers for eternity.

Friends, I ain't no snob, but I feel that recognizing the place of the Altec sectorals in the grand scheme of midrange horns is an essential step in achieving satisfaction with domestic Altec-based horn systems.

 

[winters860]

I recently came upon a pair of 846A cabinets with no crossover, but also no original drivers (and the replacements don't even match each other).

Starting from near scratch, I'm thinking of putting Dayton Audio PA380-8 and D250P pro drivers in the cabinets, keeping the 811B horn, and sussing out a passive crossover that likely wouldn't be based on the N800F.

If I can find the space for them, and I can get them to sound halfway decent, I'll probably start upgrading the speakers on the instalment plan, replacing the 811B and Dayton compression driver with a 1.4" arrangement, and likely going for a somewhat bassier and less-sensitive woofer than the stock 416z. Maybe JBL 2235H. There's speakers to slavishly restore, and there's speakers that are too far gone to worry about the gasps from the originalists.

 

[bowtie427ss]

These horn CAN be tamed to sound good, not ring and disperse nicely!!

It took me a few years. But, i finally came to the realization that a statement like that is an indication of the writer's personal point of reference, and should not be used as an objective guide to how they actually sound to YOU.

 

[Joe Roberts]

Thank you, Sir Bowtie. You said it better than I did.

A lot of people like the sectorals, but I feel that a realistic survey of what is possible does not shine a positive light on those things in the grand scheme.

They give you a snort of what horns can do, good and bad, and hopefully will inspire to take the next step toward good, rather than giving up in frustration.

I have heard some awesome performance from this general two-way topology from both earlier and later designs than Valencias and 811s. I'm working on two such systems now, in fact, and I'm trying to get a pr of 802s together for the second one if anybody has a line on some.

Just recognize if you reach that point where, as Sun Ra put it, "You're on the right road, but going the wrong direction." It is the right road.

Sectorals do kick ass on classic rock though. Now, where did I put my bong?

 

[dc270]

It took me a few years. But, i finally came to the realization that a statement like that is an indication of the writer's personal point of reference, and should not be used as an objective guide to how they actually sound to YOU.

I'll agree with that, I tend not to listen to levels that make them sound as harsh, and with my modifications and certain drivers, the sound pretty tame and intelligible. I found my room contributed to harshness as well, so work was needed there too. It was not just the horn throat, but many thing out from it and around it.
DC

 

[Mike Gibson]

I had 846A's for over 40 years and the single best upgrade was going to an active crossover. Later on I replaced them with 846B's as the cabinets were really beat. I upgraded to 902 compression drivers in the B's and am quite satisfied with the results.

Some advantages of the electronic crossover I use are the ability to change crossover frequencies on the fly, and control individual driver outputs. Also I can adjust output of low & high independently. These are just my impressions so YMMV.

 

[dc270]

I had 846A's for over 40 years and the single best upgrade was going to an active crossover. Later on I replaced them with 846B's as the cabinets were really beat. I upgraded to 902 compression drivers in the B's and am quite satisfied with the results.

Some advantages of the electronic crossover I use are the ability to change crossover frequencies on the fly, and control individual driver outputs. Also I can adjust output of low & high independently. These are just my impressions so YMMV.

Absolutely agree here too- I finally had mine on an Ashly 2 way with a Hafler DH500 and a 35 watt misc Yamaha- best my 19's ever sounded!
DC

 

[EliFisk]

I'd say the Valencia can give you a whiff of what an Altec based two way can offer but it is not the gourmet spread. It is a corn dog but it can be moved up to 'Hebrew National hot dog on a fresh roll' status.

JR - That's hilarious. Much appreciated :tresbon:

 

[EliFisk]

From the AKer responses, the two key take-aways are:

1. Replace the N-800 with a new crossover
2. Consider replacing the 811 horn due to ringing issues

What are some other horns that work well with the 806 compression driver?

What about wooden horns for the 806 driver - any recommendations?

 

[bowtie427ss]

From the AKer responses, the two key take-aways are:

1. Replace the N-800 with a new crossover
2. Consider replacing the 811 horn due to ringing issues

What are some other horns that work well with the 806 compression driver?

What about wooden horns for the 806 driver - any recommendations?

At some point a transition occurs, and you no longer have 846A Valencias.

Sometimes it makes life easier if you simply accept that the 846A is NOT a perfect loudspeaker.

My advice to you would be to enjoy the Valencias, enjoy them for what they are, and what they do well. Take notes on their shortcomings as well as their strong points.

Then, maybe consider a scratch build based on the knowledge and experience you gain from the Valencias. Or, maybe you can find a badly worn pair that need major rehabbing and would be more suitable for a radical departure from the stock recipe.

 

[EliFisk]

My advice to you would be to enjoy the Valencias, enjoy them for what they are, and what they do well. Take notes on their shortcomings as well as their strong points.

Then, maybe consider a scratch build based on the knowledge and experience you gain from the Valencias. Or, maybe you can find a badly worn pair that need major rehabbing and would be more suitable for a radical departure from the stock recipe.

That is sound advice Bowtie - many thanks.

I enjoy the music emanating from the Valencias and my Scott 222C. Plan to build new XOs (at some point), have the Alnico magnets recharged and otherwise keep the Altecs the way they are.

Not perfect but quite musical and, let's face it, there is a reason why Altecs have a cult following ;-)

 

[big2bird]

I had 846A's for over 40 years and the single best upgrade was going to an active crossover. Later on I replaced them with 846B's as the cabinets were really beat. I upgraded to 902 compression drivers in the B's and am quite satisfied with the results.

Some advantages of the electronic crossover I use are the ability to change crossover frequencies on the fly, and control individual driver outputs. Also I can adjust output of low & high independently. These are just my impressions so YMMV.

^^^^^^^This. I have had my Val's since new in 76. Use an active x-over, and coat the exterior of the horns with dynamat, and build a 18" base to raise them up to ear level. Best 3 mods I have done. I also did the 902 upgrade.

 

[Mike Gibson]

^^^^^^^This. I have had my Val's since new in 76. Use an active x-over, and coat the exterior of the horns with dynamat, and build a 18" base to raise them up to ear level. Best 3 mods I have done. I also did the 902 upgrade.

I forgot that I had coated my horns with automobile sound deadening mat and built 8" risers to get them up high enough.

 

[Joe Roberts]

Yeah, OP, you never told us what you think of the Valencias as they stand.

I concur with Bowtie that they offer a learning opportunity and I tried to get that point across above.

Valencias are a super classic vintage speaker and I'd say they achieve their goal, which is to provide a taste of horn speaker sound in a stylish and compact domestic package for 1960s middle-class hi-fi owners.

One of the lessons I learned the hard way is that "mods" are best employed when you basically like the target piece of gear. If you don't like it now, mods will rarely change that to a total lovefest.

And post-mod, you will be left with a boogered-up abortion of a formerly-intact desirable vintage item that still won't sound great and which will have lost its historical artifact and market appeal. One less specimen for posterity.

One way I like to think about audio gear and material items in general is that things enjoy numerous "careers" in their history. A pair of Altec drivers could have been in an auditorium to start out with, then a couple other scammers get them, then you get them, and when you sell them, a guy in Taiwan buys them and sets up a system in a Taipei flat. And on and on, before and after your time.

If you mess up an item with mods and improvements, what does that do to the present history of the item? A nice vintage car becomes a chopped-up ghetto cruiser.

Despite my personal, rather harsh, assessment of the Valencia, many people really like these speakers and many more would love to have them for what they are.

One reason I am a contributing member on this site is that folks around here seem to be having a lot of fun with old thrift shopped and trash picked mid-fi gear. This is a great thing, this enjoyment of what you got, what found its way to you, the less than top-of-the-line, not the latest and greatest.

I get to play with a lot of super rare and fabulous vintage horns in my audio work. I'll be the first one to state that there are a number of Western Electric systems that are far better than Altec, but I use Altec. I've been using Altec speakers for 30 years and I am happy with Altec, except that price has gone way up and availability down. I can fly back home after hearing some really insane theater systems and still be happy to fire up my stuff.

What's the goal? I think sonically it is to find a sound that one is comfortable with and you can melt into and enjoy and intellectually it is to know where the gear one chooses and rejects and doesn't own all fits into the big picture.

After owning and hearing mountains of gear, from trashpick fabulous to the fanciest stuff there is, I have a catalog of sounds in my head and some understanding of where I can plug myself in and be happy in the vast universe of audio equipment.

This knowledge is more valuable to me than gear. I don't want to own most of this stuff anymore. All I need is a few pairs of WE/Altec 700 series PM cones and some Altec woofs and drivers and I'm good for life. I have all of that, except that I need another pair of 802s at the moment (to build a two way with WE 728Bs).

Actually, Bowtie helped hook me up with one of my Altec 756Bs in my "permanent collection," for which I will be eternally grateful.

And I'll go him one step further and say that very little, if any, consumer vintage gear is "perfect." It's not just the Valencia 846As.

With horn systems, unless you find a working pair of WE 757As in the dumpster, building your own system out of good parts is the way to go. Dial it in for your ear, space, electronics. Make only the compromises you are happy with. Study learn build adjust and enjoy!

DIY is the path of righteousness with horn systems. For the proceeds of a Valencia sale, you can build a setup that is pretty much better than anything you can buy. Grab a pr of Altec 416s, some Radian drivers, etc. There are a lot of interesting parts around. The rest is thought and labor, very rewarding work.

I go to the Munich HiEnd show every year and seldom hear any speakers that would make me want to trade my Altecs. Most of the stuff that is in the same league is $75000/pr. or a few times that pricetag. And many, perhaps most, of those $$$ products started out as somebody's DIY project.

In the overall universe of possibilities there is no need to, no sense in, pointing a drill at a pr of nice Valencias. If somebody is skilled enough to make those sound great, then that person could make a really top-notch horn system starting from scratch with the same bank account.

Just food for thought based on my experience and looking around at what is going on around the audio world. Hope it is useful to somebody.

[Well, a lot of replies since I started writing this long-winded post early this AM but let me say enjoy the 846As!]