Using TAPE OUT for active speakers

[Kpangolo]

Hello,
I would love to be able to have a third set of speakers attached to my Marantz 2220. Does anybody know what is the voltage coming out of the TAPE OUT RCA port on those? I have connected active speakers to it and it works well, now I would like to attach a very long (maybe 100ft) RCA cable to it can connect my active speakers to it. What kind of sound would I get with that setup in terms of noise and distortion?
Thanks
Louis

 

[Dswankey]

Running 3 pair of speakers doesn't sound like a very good idea, what speakers are you currently using?

You mention connecting "active" speakers do you mean powered? if so why do want to use the Marantz's amplification to override the amp in the active/powered speaker?

While that Marantz is a nice unit at 20 wpc you will really be taxing it running 3 sets of speakers

 

[elnaldo]

Manuals here:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/marantz/2220.shtml

I'd expect a line level near 200mV at the tape out. Input sensitivity is 180mV, so that's the line level used in that unit.

I think 100ft of a wire carrying low voltage line level signals can have some issues. Perhaps you need some devices at both ends, something like a Direct Box to convert the signal to a balanced signal. Perhaps your powered speakers have already a balanced input. In that case you'd need just one Direct box at the receiver end.

The long wire will work, but it can pick hum or loose some freqs due to the cable capacitance. A good low capacitance cable will work better but it's more expensive. The "Pros" I know use Direct boxes to send balanced signals instead of unbalanced when the wire runs are long.

 

[RTally]

Hello,
I would love to be able to have a third set of speakers attached to my Marantz 2220. Does anybody know what is the voltage coming out of the TAPE OUT RCA port on those? I have connected active speakers to it and it works well, now I would like to attach a very long (maybe 100ft) RCA cable to it can connect my active speakers to it. What kind of sound would I get with that setup in terms of noise and distortion?
Thanks
Louis

What you propose doing is the best way. The tape out will be at the full voltage of your input. If you were to use a pre-amp output, the voltage level would be lower, increasing the chances of noise making it to the powered speakers. A run of 100' is a lot for home, consumer quality cables. Professional systems often have 50 to 100 foot cable runs. You may want to visit Guitar Center and buy professional grade interconnects.

 

[bowtie427ss]

Use a good quality mic cable, quality connectors and route your wire run away from power lines and appliances.

Chances are about 99.5% that you will have no noise issues.

The "Pros" I know use Direct boxes to send balanced signals instead of unbalanced when the wire runs are long.

If his powered speakers don't have a balanced input, he then would need to run a 2nd DI(direct interface) at the other end of his cable run to convert the signal back to single ended.

I'd wager there's as much if not even more potential of signal degradation/noise using multiple interfaces than there is from a well thought out single ended cable run using quality cable.

 

[Kpangolo]

Running 3 pair of speakers doesn't sound like a very good idea, what speakers are you currently using?

You mention connecting "active" speakers do you mean powered? if so why do want to use the Marantz's amplification to override the amp in the active/powered speaker?

While that Marantz is a nice unit at 20 wpc you will really be taxing it running 3 sets of speakers

Yes powered speakers. I already use both speakers output, and the third set of speakers will be the powered ones connected to the Tape Out port. As you mention, the idea is not to overwhelm the speakers' ouputs.

 

[Kpangolo]

Manuals here:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/marantz/2220.shtml

I'd expect a line level near 200mV at the tape out. Input sensitivity is 180mV, so that's the line level used in that unit.

I think 100ft of a wire carrying low voltage line level signals can have some issues. Perhaps you need some devices at both ends, something like a Direct Box to convert the signal to a balanced signal. Perhaps your powered speakers have already a balanced input. In that case you'd need just one Direct box at the receiver end.

The long wire will work, but it can pick hum or loose some freqs due to the cable capacitance. A good low capacitance cable will work better but it's more expensive. The "Pros" I know use Direct boxes to send balanced signals instead of unbalanced when the wire runs are long.

Thank you, 200 mV is not much to work with.

 

[Kpangolo]

What you propose doing is the best way. The tape out will be at the full voltage of your input. If you were to use a pre-amp output, the voltage level would be lower, increasing the chances of noise making it to the powered speakers. A run of 100' is a lot for home, consumer quality cables. Professional systems often have 50 to 100 foot cable runs. You may want to visit Guitar Center and buy professional grade interconnects.

OK, thanks RTally. I will try to minimize the length of that cable. The distance as the crow flies (hopefully not in the house) is less than 50 ft but I need to wire it through the basement and come back up in the other room.

 

[Kpangolo]

Use a good quality mic cable, quality connectors and route your wire run away from power lines and appliances.

Chances are about 99.5% that you will have no noise issues.

If his powered speakers don't have a balanced input, he then would need to run a 2nd DI(direct interface) at the other end of his cable run to convert the signal back to single ended.

I'd wager there's as much if not even more potential of signal degradation/noise using multiple interfaces than there is from a well thought out single ended cable run using quality cable.

OK thanks bowtie427ss, this is very helpful and encouraging. I will try to find the best cable that my budget can afford ;0)

 

[the skipper]

You do realize that using the tape outs will make any controls on the unit's preamp useless, don't you? No volume control, no tone controls, no balance, etc.

All you will be able to do is source selection and maybe the tuner and phono preamp. at full volume.

 

[spark1]

I would guess that his powered speakers have their own volume control, and possibly tone controls.

 

[spark1]

Running 3 pair of speakers doesn't sound like a very good idea, what speakers are you currently using?

You mention connecting "active" speakers do you mean powered? if so why do want to use the Marantz's amplification to override the amp in the active/powered speaker?

While that Marantz is a nice unit at 20 wpc you will really be taxing it running 3 sets of speakers

Powered speakers. Marantz would be providing signal, not power.

 

[Kpangolo]

You do realize that using the tape outs will make any controls on the unit's preamp useless, don't you? No volume control, no tone controls, no balance, etc.

All you will be able to do is source selection and maybe the tuner and phono preamp. at full volume.

Yes, thanks I do realize that. The speakers do have the appropriate controls. Good point.

 

[RTally]

You do realize that using the tape outs will make any controls on the unit's preamp useless, don't you? No volume control, no tone controls, no balance, etc.

All you will be able to do is source selection and maybe the tuner and phono preamp. at full volume.

The OP is looking at a 100' cable run to his powered speakers. It would not be practical to use the "source" for volume control since the speakers will likely be in another part of the house and likely not audible at the location of the source. In OP's case, the best way to control volume is locally, where the powered speakers are located.

 

[RTally]

OK, thanks RTally. I will try to minimize the length of that cable. The distance as the crow flies (hopefully not in the house) is less than 50 ft but I need to wire it through the basement and come back up in the other room.

Instead of length, the most important factor to reduce or minimize noise is routing. You want to avoid any coupling between your cable and any noise sources. Sometimes keeping the cable short reduces coupling, but poor routing can introduce more noise than a short cable run can reduce.

Do not route the cable parallel to any power cable, this includes all 120 Vac wiring going to receptacles. It is best to keep the cable as far away as possible from any power cable or any appliance. If you must cross a power cable, make it a perpendicular crossing.

 

[merdy]

I have used canare quad mic cables for long runs around 100ft from tape outlets and line outs with no issues as they are woven shielded not just wrapped in some foil you can buy bulk from some pro audio stores
Another brand I am trying now is sommer cable and are excellent
I have also used some 1:1 ratio transformers in sensitive equipment and have not measured any losses under 120 ft ,of course having good transformers are beneficial

 

[kfa888]

Why not just have another source? Why the run from the amp?

 

[spark1]

Yeah. And get different speakers. Change your haircut too.

 

[RTally]

Why not just have another source? Why the run from the amp?

Because some of use like to listen to the same source as we move around. I have 4 systems. Each system with its own amp and speakers. All playing the same source. The easiest way to ensure that they are in sync is direct wire. Using wireless to connect often results in a slight out of sync sound. For the systems that are not really audible from the other systems, wireless is fine. For example, my garage uses a CCA because I cannot hear it in the house and vice versa. For closer systems, a direct connection provides the best solution.

 

[kfa888]

Because some of use like to listen to the same source as we move around. I have 4 systems. Each system with its own amp and speakers. All playing the same source. The easiest way to ensure that they are in sync is direct wire. Using wireless to connect often results in a slight out of sync sound. For the systems that are not really audible from the other systems, wireless is fine. For example, my garage uses a CCA because I cannot hear it in the house and vice versa. For closer systems, a direct connection provides the best solution.

Ah... makes sense. Thanks.