Valve Phono Stages

[ow81]

Hi, I've been thinking about upgrading my phono preamp , currently I have the Project Phonobox MM which is an entry level model. I have seen some Chinese clones of the EAR834 valve Phono stage that are very reasonably priced, as cheap as the next step up of solid state preamp. I'm wondering if I will like the valve sound, I've heard descriptions like "holographic" and "3D soundstage" but what do these actually mean? If someone can describe in non wooly terms what a valve phono stage will have over a solid state counterpart that would be very useful. I like my valve guitar amplifiers although solid state designs have become closer to valve recently but not quite. My integrated amp is solid state class ab, so will a valve phono stage feeding this still make a big difference?

Cheers,
O

 

[Hoytis]

What's your budget? If you just insert an entry-level tube stage, you're definitely not going to experience anything holographic or 3D. That type of playback comes down to high-end components and the synergy between them. Do you also have an entry-level cartridge, amp and speakers? If you bumped up to something like ProJect's tube box I think you would experience something a bit warmer, softer around the edges with better mid-range. Is that the sound you're after?

 

[ow81]

What's your budget? If you just insert an entry-level tube stage, you're definitely not going to experience anything holographic or 3D. That type of playback comes down to high-end components and the synergy between them. Do you also have an entry-level cartridge, amp and speakers? If you bumped up to something like ProJect's tube box I think you would experience something a bit warmer, softer around the edges with better mid-range. Is that the sound you're after?

So my setup is pretty budget I guess, so Turntable is Project Debut S with a Sumiko Ranier cartridge, amp is Yamaha as301 and speakers Jamo s809 floorstanders. The Sumiko cartridge sounds nice to me previously had OM10, Sumiko sounds much warmer so I'm guessing that the warmth of tubes is probably going to be something I like. I've learned from someone else in here that the Sumiko uses an Excel generator and there's a cartridge from LPgear using the same generator with a line contact stylus that's much cheaper than going up the Sumiko line, so intending to purchase that soon. The Ear834 seems to use ECC83 valves X3 the Project Tube box has two ECC83 but a transistor preamp, but maybe it's a fairly similar circuit?

 

[Mr Boochie]

Hi, I've been thinking about upgrading my phono preamp , currently I have the Project Phonobox MM which is an entry level model. I have seen some Chinese clones of the EAR834 valve Phono stage that are very reasonably priced, as cheap as the next step up of solid state preamp. I'm wondering if I will like the valve sound, I've heard descriptions like "holographic" and "3D soundstage" but what do these actually mean? If someone can describe in non wooly terms what a valve phono stage will have over a solid state counterpart that would be very useful. I like my valve guitar amplifiers although solid state designs have become closer to valve recently but not quite. My integrated amp is solid state class ab, so will a valve phono stage feeding this still make a big difference?

Cheers,
O

The vintage valved guitar amps are better than modern modeling solid-state ones for most situations.

One thing about valves (tubes). They can introduce more noise (especially in the low-voltage phono stages). Keep this in mind when purchasing lower-cost units.

 

[ow81]

The vintage valved guitar amps are better than modern modeling solid-state ones for most situations.

One thing about valves (tubes). They can introduce more noise (especially in the low-voltage phono stages). Keep this in mind when purchasing lower-cost units.

The Ear834 clone I was looking at seems to have two boxes one for the PSU one for the actual amp, I'm guessing that's to try to avoid some of the noise, the whole thing is about £180 including p&p which is pretty cheap considering it's not a hybrid, but maybe too cheap and could be noisy?

 

[ow81]

The vintage valved guitar amps are better than modern modeling solid-state ones for most situations.

One thing about valves (tubes). They can introduce more noise (especially in the low-voltage phono stages). Keep this in mind when purchasing lower-cost units.

Here's the Ear834 clone, seems to have two boxes one for the PSU and another for the actual amp. I guess this combats noise to some extent? Does it look ok to you? Looks reasonably well made, as far as you can tell from a picture anyway

 

[Mr Boochie]

The Ear834 clone I was looking at seems to have two boxes one for the PSU one for the actual amp, I'm guessing that's to try to avoid some of the noise, the whole thing is about £180 including p&p which is pretty cheap considering it's not a hybrid, but maybe too cheap and could be noisy?

The tubes themselves have an inherent baseline noise level. A tube phono pre-amp can never be as quiet as a good solid-state one, so improving the overall audio quality (with a good tube phono preamp) has to compensate for this added noise.

I like tubed phono preamps. To achieve the lowest background noise, I used a medical-hospital-grade power supply and carefully routed the cables.

The quality of the vinyl and pressing also adds to the background noise. But the PSU noise is a more distinct hiss or buzz.

In this video, the hiss/hum/buzz starts around 0:20 (lead-in between tracks). The camera's audio circuitry also enhances any noise level, if not set correctly with respects to the mic mixer. This was recorded with the original power supply and no attention to the cable geometry of the turntable or preamp.

It is not pleasant during quiet passages.

After the Meanwell power supply and attention to cable arrangement, I used headphones at a healthy volume (no input) while moving the cables and power cords around to get the least background noise. I fixed them in position with wire tie wraps. This does work.

 

[Mr Boochie]

Here's the Ear834 clone, seems to have two boxes one for the PSU and another for the actual amp. I guess this combats noise to some extent? Does it look ok to you? Looks reasonably well made, as far as you can tell from a picture anyway

One can't tell by looking at the unit. Maybe some YouTube tests are available?

 

[ow81]

The tubes themselves have an inherent baseline noise level. A tube phono pre-amp can never be as quiet as a good solid-state one, so improving the overall audio quality (with a good tube phono preamp) has to compensate for this added noise.

I like tubed phono preamps. To achieve the lowest background noise, I used a medical-hospital-grade power supply and carefully routed the cables.

The quality of the vinyl and pressing also adds to the background noise. But the PSU noise is a more distinct hiss or buzz.

In this video, the hiss/hum/buzz starts around 0:20 (lead-in between tracks). The camera's audio circuitry also enhances any noise level, if not set correctly with respects to the mic mixer. This was recorded with the original power supply and no attention to the cable geometry of the turntable or preamp.

It is not pleasant during quiet passages.

After the Meanwell power supply and attention to cable arrangement, I used headphones at a healthy volume (no input) while moving the cables and power cords around to get the least background noise. I fixed them in position with wire tie wraps. This does work.

The second example sounds great, no real background noise that I can detect. I find that some of my vinyl is much noisier than others too. Some of it is rough though, I got about 200 LPs out of my aunty's garage when she was clearing it out, she was going to dump them all but I managed to save them. Unfortunately most of the sleeves were shot from the damp, so put them in plain white sleeves. Some of it plays well and is nice but some is a bit rough. But like you say pressings seem to vary with new stuff even. When I was a teenager in the 90s I used to buy a lot of my punk and indie stuff on LP because the LP was a bit cheaper than the CD, lol, hifi is a more recent interest for me, back then it was purely an economic choice, I could afford more stuff on LP. Playing some of those lps and 7" now though some of the pressings are awful! My music tastes are much more eclectic these days, still give the punk stuff a spin from time to time though. I used to love the 99p single, would go in to Replay records in the underpass by the bus station, man that was a dive, and I'd come out with a stack of vinyl singles often in different coloured vinyl, speckled, etc, even have a few wacky shaped records splat shaped, square etc etc. those were the days, lol.
What would a fifteen year old me think of me now sat listening to a Carole King LP? Certainly wouldn't be printable in here, lol!

 

[cgallery]

There is a lot of hype when it comes to phono stages. The 3D imaging and stuff, I think it gets a bit silly in trying to justify the extra dollars spent for very expensive models.

Ask someone like Floyd Toole what he thinks about 3D imaging with two speakers regardless of source.

The best advice I ever got and now give, is make sure you have full return privileges on any phono amp, so you can make sure it delivers in the promises made.

 

[Mr Boochie]

It's hard to predict the quietness of the background of LPs, even the "audiophile" ones.

Some mass-produced ones are the quietest.

From The Beginning.
Off "Trilogy." Cotillion Records. SD 9903. Monarch pressing. 1972
Run-out: ST-CTN-922557-CC Repl AT/GP (MR) △17137 (1A).

 

[ow81]

It's hard to predict the quietness of the background of LPs, even the "audiophile" ones.

Some mass-produced ones are the quietest.

From The Beginning.
Off "Trilogy." Cotillion Records. SD 9903. Monarch pressing. 1972
Run-out: ST-CTN-922557-CC Repl AT/GP (MR) △17137 (1A).

I've got a best of Emerson, Lake and Palmer LP on Atlantic circa 1980 (SD19283) don't know if it's a good one but will give it a spin now. It's got a picture of a Buddhist monk with a turntable in the front or something like that.

 

[Mr Boochie]

I've got a best of Emerson, Lake and Palmer LP on Atlantic circa 1980 (SD19283) don't know if it's a good one but will give it a spin now. It's got a picture of a Buddhist monk with a turntable in the front or something like that.

Yes is another group that had some LPs with very quiet background. Note the common denominator? Monarch pressing.

Roundabout.
Off Yes "Fragile." Atlantic Records. SD 7211. Monarch Pressing. Mastered by George Piros (GP). 1972.
Run-out: ST-A-712367BB-REPL MR AT/GP ∆16513(F2) PR

 

[ow81]

Yes is another group that had some LPs with very quiet background. Note the common denominator? Monarch pressing.

Roundabout.
Off Yes "Fragile." Atlantic Records. SD 7211. Monarch Pressing. Mastered by George Piros (GP). 1972.
Run-out: ST-A-712367BB-REPL MR AT/GP ∆16513(F2) PR

I a copy of out of the blue by ELO which I always think sounds like a really good pressing but when I've looked it up everyone says nothing special. I've got a fair bit of prog from that era, they're my Dad's old LPs, they don't have a turntable anymore so he gave them to me, he's really looked after them though all mint sleeves and all play nicely. That Out of the Blue is one of my favourite records these days, will have to be careful I don't wear it out though.

 

[Mr Boochie]

I a copy of out of the blue by ELO which I always think sounds like a really good pressing but when I've looked it up everyone says nothing special. I've got a fair bit of prog from that era, they're my Dad's old LPs, they don't have a turntable anymore so he gave them to me, he's really looked after them though all mint sleeves and all play nicely. That Out of the Blue is one of my favourite records these days, will have to be careful I don't wear it out though.

If your tornarm is aligned, the cartridge is healthy, and the tracking is set correctly, the LPs will last—longer than many of my CDs.

 

[ow81]

Yes is another group that had some LPs with very quiet background. Note the common denominator? Monarch pressing.

Roundabout.
Off Yes "Fragile." Atlantic Records. SD 7211. Monarch Pressing. Mastered by George Piros (GP). 1972.
Run-out: ST-A-712367BB-REPL MR AT/GP ∆16513(F2) PR

Got. Close to the Edge - Yes Atlantic k50012
And Relayer - Yes ATL50096

That I can lay my hands on easily

 

[ow81]

If your turntable is aligned, the cartridge is healthy, and the tracking is set correctly, the LPs will last—longer than many of my CDs.

It wasn't aligned by the factory but have corrected it. They (Project) make a selling point of the cartridge being "factory aligned" but this was miles out. But now it's all good and tracking and AS all correct. I bought a digital gauge for my old deck as it had no scale on the weight so useful to have as the scale isn't 100% accurate.

 

[Mr Boochie]

It wasn't aligned by the factory but have corrected it. They (Project) make a selling point of the cartridge being "factory aligned" but this was miles out. But now it's all good and tracking and AS all correct. I bought a digital gauge for my old deck as it had no scale on the weight so useful to have as the scale isn't 100% accurate.

You should be good to go.

 

[Hajidub]

Here's the Ear834 clone, seems to have two boxes one for the PSU and another for the actual amp. I guess this combats noise to some extent? Does it look ok to you? Looks reasonably well made, as far as you can tell from a picture anyway

This is a true Ear834 clone, Zhili Audio, dead silent even at full volume. Sounds utterly incredible, 9V ran MC with MM option as normal. P/S is seperate internally with proper shielding.

 

[BillWojo]

Thanks Hajidub,
Glad someone pointed that out. Volumes have been posted on that unit.

BillWojo