It truly is. It’s a work of art.
Vintage 1967 Built In High End Home Hi Fi
- Thread starter Flashback67
- Start date
Flashback67
Active Member
I fully realize my next post was supposed to cover the restoration of my TD124 turntable. However, one other requirement for my audio system took priority, and I believe most of you with a spouse would fully understand.
For the past year, my wife has been asking me to write down some instructions on how to use the new audio system. This system consists of a collection of ten separate components, playing six different recording formats, and integrating audio technologies spanning five decades. So one page list of instructions was not going to cut it. Being an engineer, solution was obvious. I needed to create an operating manual with figures showing how to operate the system step by step. Cynthia is actually pretty technical minded for an art major. Her father, being into cars taught his daughters well. She can use the manual for the Pioneer 707 reel to reel and the Thorens turntable. What she needed was a manual on how to operate the collection of Schiit components.
Enjoy. Hope to start on the turntable restoration sometime this week.
For the past year, my wife has been asking me to write down some instructions on how to use the new audio system. This system consists of a collection of ten separate components, playing six different recording formats, and integrating audio technologies spanning five decades. So one page list of instructions was not going to cut it. Being an engineer, solution was obvious. I needed to create an operating manual with figures showing how to operate the system step by step. Cynthia is actually pretty technical minded for an art major. Her father, being into cars taught his daughters well. She can use the manual for the Pioneer 707 reel to reel and the Thorens turntable. What she needed was a manual on how to operate the collection of Schiit components.
Enjoy. Hope to start on the turntable restoration sometime this week.
love it
Flashback67
Active Member
First response:
“Twenty five pages!”
Second response, after seeing it was 25 pages because it was step-by-step:
“How about a manual to cover the whole home system now?”
At least that manual should just be about three pages ….
“Twenty five pages!”
Second response, after seeing it was 25 pages because it was step-by-step:
“How about a manual to cover the whole home system now?”
At least that manual should just be about three pages ….
Flashback67
Active Member
Once again, it’s no surprise that progress is slower than I originally planned. I’m traveling again, last week was New York city, next week will be Washington DC. What’s Different on these trips is I’m traveling as the significant other to my wife who is attending conferences. So my semi retirement travel is actually increasing compared to my full employment. With my wife’s new job I’m traveling for two jobs instead of one.
That said, while in New York City, I did a quick search of stereo shops within walking distance of our hotel and found Park Avenue audio. There I found the type of audio shop I didn’t think existed anymore, except in magazines, like hi-fi, and TAS. Despite my honesty with the young man, when I entered that I was just killing time and admiring the equipment, the owner came down and we talked for almost an hour about equipment and high-performance cars. Was a great guy. When I win the lottery, I will definitely be going to New York City to buy my audio equipment.
Coming back home to reality, after researching how to best restore a TD124 turntable, I came to the conclusion that, despite the apparent good condition of the motor, it should be disassembled for inspection and replacement of the bearings. Disassembly also revealed other parts, required replacement, like a fried capacitor. While ordering new bearings and capacitor from Audio Silente in Italy, I found other parts that I would be foolish not to replace. Especially since the cost to ship these little parts is almost as much as the parts themselves. So I also purchased a ceramic bearing and brass thrust plate for the platter, a LED bulb for the strobe, special screws, and some upgraded silicone bushings, and Teflon washers. Following a complete disassembly of the turntable for cleaning and polishing parts, the turntable is now almost fully re-assembled with these new parts.
To break in properly the new motor bearings, it’s recommended to operate the rotor for a full week before a final check with the tachometer of the motor rpm. That will need to wait until I get back from DC. I don’t feel comfortable letting the motor run without anybody in the house except the dogs. If any of you are ever wanting to check the RPM of your turntable motor or the platter itself, there’s a smart phone app that uses the camera as a strobe tachometer. If it works as promised, I will give you the name.
Once the motor is fully broken in, I will complete the assembly and provide a full update. I said there would be three phases to the turntable restoration, but now I realize there will be a fourth. I still need to fully adjust the tone arm for tracking and balance. I’ve never done this with a tonearm with as many adjustments as the SME3009. Thankfully there’s a lot of online sources to reference.
That said, while in New York City, I did a quick search of stereo shops within walking distance of our hotel and found Park Avenue audio. There I found the type of audio shop I didn’t think existed anymore, except in magazines, like hi-fi, and TAS. Despite my honesty with the young man, when I entered that I was just killing time and admiring the equipment, the owner came down and we talked for almost an hour about equipment and high-performance cars. Was a great guy. When I win the lottery, I will definitely be going to New York City to buy my audio equipment.
Coming back home to reality, after researching how to best restore a TD124 turntable, I came to the conclusion that, despite the apparent good condition of the motor, it should be disassembled for inspection and replacement of the bearings. Disassembly also revealed other parts, required replacement, like a fried capacitor. While ordering new bearings and capacitor from Audio Silente in Italy, I found other parts that I would be foolish not to replace. Especially since the cost to ship these little parts is almost as much as the parts themselves. So I also purchased a ceramic bearing and brass thrust plate for the platter, a LED bulb for the strobe, special screws, and some upgraded silicone bushings, and Teflon washers. Following a complete disassembly of the turntable for cleaning and polishing parts, the turntable is now almost fully re-assembled with these new parts.
To break in properly the new motor bearings, it’s recommended to operate the rotor for a full week before a final check with the tachometer of the motor rpm. That will need to wait until I get back from DC. I don’t feel comfortable letting the motor run without anybody in the house except the dogs. If any of you are ever wanting to check the RPM of your turntable motor or the platter itself, there’s a smart phone app that uses the camera as a strobe tachometer. If it works as promised, I will give you the name.
Once the motor is fully broken in, I will complete the assembly and provide a full update. I said there would be three phases to the turntable restoration, but now I realize there will be a fourth. I still need to fully adjust the tone arm for tracking and balance. I’ve never done this with a tonearm with as many adjustments as the SME3009. Thankfully there’s a lot of online sources to reference.
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Flashback67
Active Member
Well, the app for the strobe tachometer appears to work quite well. The free version only provides resolution down to a 10 RPM. To get resolution down to a single RPM you need to pay $2.99. For a strobe tachometer that’s pretty cheap.
Running free without a belt to the idler wheel the motor is running cold, 1716 RPM and after 10 minutes of running to get hot 1728 RPM. I wouldn’t call the motor actually hot, it’s barely warm to the touch. After 20 minutes running the motor is running 1734 RPM. These numbers are in line with what the rebuild instructions say is normal.
Attached are some screenshots of the tachometer readings and information on the app.
The only thing that doesn’t appear normal is a very light scratching sound from the motor. Without any load on the bearings this is not unusual for electric motors. But I’ll do some research just to be sure. If any of you have experience with this, please pipe in.
Now time to put this away and start packing for DC.
Running free without a belt to the idler wheel the motor is running cold, 1716 RPM and after 10 minutes of running to get hot 1728 RPM. I wouldn’t call the motor actually hot, it’s barely warm to the touch. After 20 minutes running the motor is running 1734 RPM. These numbers are in line with what the rebuild instructions say is normal.
Attached are some screenshots of the tachometer readings and information on the app.
The only thing that doesn’t appear normal is a very light scratching sound from the motor. Without any load on the bearings this is not unusual for electric motors. But I’ll do some research just to be sure. If any of you have experience with this, please pipe in.
Now time to put this away and start packing for DC.
Flashback67
Active Member
I got a quick response from Simone at Audio Silente. The sound I am hearing is normal, and should go away during the running in that is recommended. with luck, I should be finished with the turntable rebuild this weekend, and will start on fine-tuning the tonearm.
Flashback67
Active Member
Good news: After 16 hours of running in, the motor became dead quiet and RPMs stabilized.
Bad news: Audio Silente recommends the motor be run for a week prior to being re-installed in the turntable.
I am currently completing the third day 8-12 hours of running followed by an evening rest to cool down.
Bad news: Audio Silente recommends the motor be run for a week prior to being re-installed in the turntable.
I am currently completing the third day 8-12 hours of running followed by an evening rest to cool down.
Flashback67
Active Member
Yesterday evening I found a good six hours to start re-assembling the turntable. After the running in the motor it is not only dead quiet, but the RPMs remain constant within a fraction of a percentage. To be exact .03%
All the parts are now put back together with the exception of the platter. With luck tomorrow, I’ll find some time to finish up the platter installation. The parts provided by Audio Silente in Italy I installed are top quality. These parts include a new machined idler wheel, starting capacitor, silicone motor support bushings, Teflon washers, drive belt, strobe lens, motor bushings, and many other small parts. The technical support provided by Simone is also excellent. There are many other sites that sell TD124 and SME tonearm parts. However, I noticed that many of these other sites are actually selling Simone’s parts.
Below are photos of the current state of turntable completion. All metal parts have been cleaned, polished, and all the new parts installed. For fun, I even put a coat of wax on the painted surfaces of the turntable frame.
For those of you who are not familiar with the TD124 it has an upper aluminum platter that allows you to stop the record while the main platter below remains turning. My turntables original stamped upper platter was damaged and repaired to where it was functionally operational. However, I could not continue to look at the mangled platter edge and be happy. So I ordered a new fully machine upper platter from Retro Tone in England. The original stamped platter, weighed only 15 oz, compared to the Retro Tone machined platter’s 34 oz. It looks really nice too. Underneath the top platter there will be a cork mat inserted to reduce vibration and static further. This allows me to retain the original rubber Thorens mat but have the benefits of the cork material. More photos on this later.
All the parts are now put back together with the exception of the platter. With luck tomorrow, I’ll find some time to finish up the platter installation. The parts provided by Audio Silente in Italy I installed are top quality. These parts include a new machined idler wheel, starting capacitor, silicone motor support bushings, Teflon washers, drive belt, strobe lens, motor bushings, and many other small parts. The technical support provided by Simone is also excellent. There are many other sites that sell TD124 and SME tonearm parts. However, I noticed that many of these other sites are actually selling Simone’s parts.
Below are photos of the current state of turntable completion. All metal parts have been cleaned, polished, and all the new parts installed. For fun, I even put a coat of wax on the painted surfaces of the turntable frame.
For those of you who are not familiar with the TD124 it has an upper aluminum platter that allows you to stop the record while the main platter below remains turning. My turntables original stamped upper platter was damaged and repaired to where it was functionally operational. However, I could not continue to look at the mangled platter edge and be happy. So I ordered a new fully machine upper platter from Retro Tone in England. The original stamped platter, weighed only 15 oz, compared to the Retro Tone machined platter’s 34 oz. It looks really nice too. Underneath the top platter there will be a cork mat inserted to reduce vibration and static further. This allows me to retain the original rubber Thorens mat but have the benefits of the cork material. More photos on this later.
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Flashback67
Active Member
Well gang, good news and bad news again. I was on track to complete the turntable restoration today, but now estimate it will take me another two weeks to get a replacement upper platter from Retro Tone in the UK.
First the good news. Restoration of the heavy cast aluminum TD124 sub platter went well. The turntable was one of the last of the 124 series, being manufactured in 1968, and also had very little use. So all that was required was a good cleaning, and adjustment of platter concentricity to the spindle.
Just because I could, I upgraded the thrust bearing from steel to ceramic (black ball bearing). This required prying out a pressed in brass retaining washer, which normally damages it from being reused. Instructions recommend using a dab or grease to hold the replacement bearing in place for installation. But with careful removal and some fettling I was able to reuse the brass washer.
Next came installing the new black silicon friction disks and cork inner mat.
To center the platter on the spindle I disassembled the 45 RPM adapter to make use of its bottom half as an alignment tool.
Now the bad news. As I mentioned earlier the Retro Tone upper platter is a heavy thick machined aluminum part compared to the original thin stamped platter.
The trouble is the rim of the Retro Tone platter is too thick, leaving not enough clearance to the sub platter to avoid rubbing. The maximum diametral clearance measured is 0.38 mm, while the minimum diametral clearance measures at 0.13 mm. The photos below show the feeler gauges, inserted to measure the maximum and minimum diametral clearance between the upper platter and sub platter rim.
If the two platters were perfectly centered to each other, the resulting radial gap would be a maximum of 0.19 mm and the minimum would be 0.065 mm. With this thin a gap it would be almost impossible to center the two platters and not have them rub.
I sent these feeler gage photos to Retro Tone late Friday, and I hope to get a quick resolution. But since Retro Tone is in the UK, getting a replacement part will not be quick.
But nothing on this project could ever be described as “quick”.
First the good news. Restoration of the heavy cast aluminum TD124 sub platter went well. The turntable was one of the last of the 124 series, being manufactured in 1968, and also had very little use. So all that was required was a good cleaning, and adjustment of platter concentricity to the spindle.
Just because I could, I upgraded the thrust bearing from steel to ceramic (black ball bearing). This required prying out a pressed in brass retaining washer, which normally damages it from being reused. Instructions recommend using a dab or grease to hold the replacement bearing in place for installation. But with careful removal and some fettling I was able to reuse the brass washer.
Next came installing the new black silicon friction disks and cork inner mat.
To center the platter on the spindle I disassembled the 45 RPM adapter to make use of its bottom half as an alignment tool.
Now the bad news. As I mentioned earlier the Retro Tone upper platter is a heavy thick machined aluminum part compared to the original thin stamped platter.
The trouble is the rim of the Retro Tone platter is too thick, leaving not enough clearance to the sub platter to avoid rubbing. The maximum diametral clearance measured is 0.38 mm, while the minimum diametral clearance measures at 0.13 mm. The photos below show the feeler gauges, inserted to measure the maximum and minimum diametral clearance between the upper platter and sub platter rim.
If the two platters were perfectly centered to each other, the resulting radial gap would be a maximum of 0.19 mm and the minimum would be 0.065 mm. With this thin a gap it would be almost impossible to center the two platters and not have them rub.
I sent these feeler gage photos to Retro Tone late Friday, and I hope to get a quick resolution. But since Retro Tone is in the UK, getting a replacement part will not be quick.
But nothing on this project could ever be described as “quick”.
Flashback67
Active Member
Before I go into any detail with the resolution of the upper platter issue, I just want to say that working with Luigi at Retro Tone has been fantastic. Just like when working on a 50 year old car, when working on a turntable that is 50 years old, one should expect problems. And most often the problems are with the 50 year old parts, not the new replacement parts.
The first question that Luigi raised was, was the lower sub platter, concentric with the spindle? Not knowing the full history of my turntable, this was a very good question that I had wondered also. Additionally to properly clean the sub platter and spindle I needed to disassemble the components, upsetting the alignment. So using the close tolerance spindle bushing in the upper platter, I manually aligned the spindle and the center hole of the sub platter. Then I set up my dial indicator to check the turntable run out. I said the zero position at where that was maximum radial run out, then recorded measurements every 90°. Nowhere between the 90° positions did the run out exceed the record of values. The total sub platter run out measured approximately 0.0007 inches (see photos attached). Luigi agreed this was very good, and not the source of the issue.
The first question that Luigi raised was, was the lower sub platter, concentric with the spindle? Not knowing the full history of my turntable, this was a very good question that I had wondered also. Additionally to properly clean the sub platter and spindle I needed to disassemble the components, upsetting the alignment. So using the close tolerance spindle bushing in the upper platter, I manually aligned the spindle and the center hole of the sub platter. Then I set up my dial indicator to check the turntable run out. I said the zero position at where that was maximum radial run out, then recorded measurements every 90°. Nowhere between the 90° positions did the run out exceed the record of values. The total sub platter run out measured approximately 0.0007 inches (see photos attached). Luigi agreed this was very good, and not the source of the issue.
Flashback67
Active Member
So the mystery now was, what was wrong with the new upper platter? The most obvious potential problem was that the rim of the upper platter had become damaged in shipment. However, there was no obvious visual damage on the upper platter rim. After consulting with Luigi, I set up my dial, indicators again, but this time to measure the upper platter run out.
The method I used to generate the measurements below, was to set up my dial indicator, and then rotate both the upper and lower platters together until I got the highest value (largest radius). I marked this position as 0°. The photos of the measurements are shown below, but the dimensions measured were;
0°- 0.0000
90°- 0.0010
180°- 0.0030
270°- 0.0010
While the measured upper platter max run out of 0.0030” is not as good as the lower sub platter, Luigi said this was still within the expected tolerance of the new part. So the mystery continued.
The method I used to generate the measurements below, was to set up my dial indicator, and then rotate both the upper and lower platters together until I got the highest value (largest radius). I marked this position as 0°. The photos of the measurements are shown below, but the dimensions measured were;
0°- 0.0000
90°- 0.0010
180°- 0.0030
270°- 0.0010
While the measured upper platter max run out of 0.0030” is not as good as the lower sub platter, Luigi said this was still within the expected tolerance of the new part. So the mystery continued.
Flashback67
Active Member
I wanted to measure the thickness of the upper platter rim with my micrometers. However, all my micrometers for engine work have hard steel surfaces with sharp edges. The last thing I wanted to do was leave, scratch and gouge marks on the outer surface of the rim. So using the sub platter as a tool, I assembled the platters together and used feeler gauges to measure the radial gap.
The photos below show the clearance between the sub platter, and the upper platter around the full circumference of the platters. On either side of the point where there is zero radial clearance, the clearance immediately widens by more than 0.011” within 20° of rotation. The gap then slowly decreases until at 180° opposite zero clearance where it is only 0.004.”
We know from measuring the upper platter with the dial indicator that the upper platter OD is within 0.003” in roundness and concentricity. Additionally, there is no visible evidence of damage on the outer or inner rim surface of the upper platter.
Looking closely at the thickness of the upper platter. It appeared to me to be thicker where there was zero clearance. Not wanting to damage the surface of the upper platter with my steel tools, I measured the rim thickness with a plastic dial caliper. This dial caliper only measures in increments down to 0.01”, however this was adequate to measure the large change thickness of the upper platter rim.
The three rim thickness measurement photos below, correspond to 20° of either side of zero clearance point where there is 0.011” and 0.012”clearance, and the zero clearance point.
The upper platter rim is thicker where there is zero clearance by more than 0.01” compared to anywhere else on the upper platter circumference. Measuring the rim thickness for the full 360°, the thickness never exceeds 0.090”. Only where there is zero clearance is the rim measurement 0.10”.
Consulting with Luigi this morning we both concur there is no doubt this is a manufacturing defect in the upper platter. Luigi is checking all his stock, and will be shipping me a confirmed good unit this week. He is also changing his inspection methodology to catch this very unusual type of defect in the future.
As an aerospace engineer, doing manufacturing quality checks as part of my job with the FAA, it was nice doing an investigation again. But I am ready to get this turntable done.
The photos below show the clearance between the sub platter, and the upper platter around the full circumference of the platters. On either side of the point where there is zero radial clearance, the clearance immediately widens by more than 0.011” within 20° of rotation. The gap then slowly decreases until at 180° opposite zero clearance where it is only 0.004.”
We know from measuring the upper platter with the dial indicator that the upper platter OD is within 0.003” in roundness and concentricity. Additionally, there is no visible evidence of damage on the outer or inner rim surface of the upper platter.
Looking closely at the thickness of the upper platter. It appeared to me to be thicker where there was zero clearance. Not wanting to damage the surface of the upper platter with my steel tools, I measured the rim thickness with a plastic dial caliper. This dial caliper only measures in increments down to 0.01”, however this was adequate to measure the large change thickness of the upper platter rim.
The three rim thickness measurement photos below, correspond to 20° of either side of zero clearance point where there is 0.011” and 0.012”clearance, and the zero clearance point.
The upper platter rim is thicker where there is zero clearance by more than 0.01” compared to anywhere else on the upper platter circumference. Measuring the rim thickness for the full 360°, the thickness never exceeds 0.090”. Only where there is zero clearance is the rim measurement 0.10”.
Consulting with Luigi this morning we both concur there is no doubt this is a manufacturing defect in the upper platter. Luigi is checking all his stock, and will be shipping me a confirmed good unit this week. He is also changing his inspection methodology to catch this very unusual type of defect in the future.
As an aerospace engineer, doing manufacturing quality checks as part of my job with the FAA, it was nice doing an investigation again. But I am ready to get this turntable done.
Flashback67
Active Member
Well, phase 3 of my TD124 turntable restoration is now complete. for those of you who are just now following this, phase 1 was restoring the SME3009 MKII Improved tonearm, phase 2, was fabricating the custom plinth, phase 3 was overhauling, the turntable, and phase 4 will be final adjustments and installation of the turntable into the media cabinet. Monday, the replacement, upper platter arrived from Retrotone in the UK. I will be heading to the UK on business the first week of December and I’ll drop the out of tolerance platter in the mail back to Retrotone so they can show it to their machine shop.
The replacement upper platter fit perfectly. I had wired on a new connector while waiting for the platter to arrive. All that was left to complete was adjustment of the upper platter stop mechanism, adjusting the eddy current damper for speed adjustment and filling the platter spindle oil well with 5W-30 synthetic oil. This needed to wait until I had an upper platter to represent the final mass and friction.
When I purchased the turntable, they had removed the original Thorens rubber mat and replaced it with an aftermarket cork mat. I actually like the look of the rubber mat and after a gentle cleaning it came out looking almost new. Retrotone designs the upper platter to sandwich a cork mat between the lower platter and the upper platter. This allows the benefit of static reduction provided by the cork and still allows you to use the original rubber mat.
This weekend I hope to install the tonearm and alignments.
FYI The plinth in the photos is the beat up one that came with the turntable I use as a work platform.
The replacement upper platter fit perfectly. I had wired on a new connector while waiting for the platter to arrive. All that was left to complete was adjustment of the upper platter stop mechanism, adjusting the eddy current damper for speed adjustment and filling the platter spindle oil well with 5W-30 synthetic oil. This needed to wait until I had an upper platter to represent the final mass and friction.
When I purchased the turntable, they had removed the original Thorens rubber mat and replaced it with an aftermarket cork mat. I actually like the look of the rubber mat and after a gentle cleaning it came out looking almost new. Retrotone designs the upper platter to sandwich a cork mat between the lower platter and the upper platter. This allows the benefit of static reduction provided by the cork and still allows you to use the original rubber mat.
This weekend I hope to install the tonearm and alignments.
FYI The plinth in the photos is the beat up one that came with the turntable I use as a work platform.
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Glad to hear the replacement platter worked out! I'm sure that you can see the light at the end of the tunnel finally. Looking forward to seeing the competition of your project and sound quality. 
Flashback67
Active Member
Me even more than you!Glad to hear the replacement platter worked out! I'm sure that you can see the light at the end of the tunnel finally. Looking forward to seeing the competition of your project and sound quality.
Flashback67
Active Member
Well, as they say, one small step at a time. I found a few hours after getting the rest of my chores done to tinker with the turntable a little more. Didn’t get as much done as I hoped because the hole in the tone arm board was 0.05” too narrow for a SME3009. Not a lot of wood to remove, but the oak is hard, and I didn’t want to mess it up. The sun started setting through the window and made for a nice lighting effect for photos. Also, it was an indication of time to quit.
With luck, I’ll find a few hours tomorrow to start assembling the cartridge on the head shell. Then Monday after I get some work in, I’ll start adjusting the tonearm.
With luck, I’ll find a few hours tomorrow to start assembling the cartridge on the head shell. Then Monday after I get some work in, I’ll start adjusting the tonearm.