Vintage Gear vs Modern Gear. Is new any better than old?

[BilboBaggins]

ok, first I want to say that I am biased towards vintage gear. I love the sound, and I really love the look of it.

But I sometimes wonder if I could get as good or better from the higher end modern gear out there. I'm thinking more in terms of vintage 70s high end gear vs modern higher end gear with the amp price parameters being about $6000. I figure this levels the playing field somewhat, by limiting the costs of modern internal components as compared to price is not object but quality sound is, and puts the gear at similar price points.

My experience is with Yamaha CA-1010, Yamaha M-40, Pioneer SA-9100, Pioneer Spec 2, Kenwood Supreme 500 and 600, McIntosh MA-6200 and MC-2205, and my favorite, the Bose 1801. I use both the 1801 driving Kef 105s, and the MC-2205 driving Kef Concerto.

I'm hoping this can be an open discussion where we don't get upset at each other for what is really, opinion.

I'm seriously interested in hearing from people who have tried both, and either have both, or went one way or the other, and why they chose that direction, and finally, do they still feel that way.

Thanks!

 

[KentTeffeteller]

New is great, but bear in mind quality new costs far more money than it used to. Compare like for like. And allow inflation for a fairer comparison.

 

[Djcoolray]

Really....

It depends on your knowledge of audio gear. Each production piece is different and each manufacturer produces a product differently. It depends on the effort or lack of will to be involved enough to gain more knowledge on the subject. The more you know, the more choice we have. Corporations try to make you believe that you are special and you deserve something new right out of the box. Then there are principles of simplistic design, that allows a piece of equipment to last almost forever. A simple circuit yields less distortion and the more bells and whistles you have shoved into a metal box, the more heat degradation you have over an amount of time. Then the purpose of equipment of not being convienient or an up to date toy. It's all about sound reproduction and how the piece of equipment is only a tool which has the potential to create a better sound over time. It's how you see it, as something you just plug in and your done or something that your continually tweaking until you finally reach the sweet spot.

 

[4-2-7]

But I sometimes wonder if I could get as good or better from the higher end modern gear out there. I'm thinking more in terms of vintage 70s high end gear vs modern higher end gear with the amp price parameters being about $6000.

I guess modern could be within the past 10 years?

I'm seriously interested in hearing from people who have tried both, and either have both, or went one way or the other, and why they chose that direction, and finally, do they still feel that way.

And that wasn't all expressed in last months thread on the same topic that's still active? Well really if members can not comment unless they have actually owned said equipment in the $6000 per component range of amps, preamps, and speakers, it would be a good start, but it ain't going to happen.

 

[telemike]

You can find good bargains on newer higher end gear. I got an $1800 Arcam DVD player for $300 and a $700 Arcam integrated for $225. The Arcam is UK made and has great sound and construction.

 

[BilboBaggins]

I guess modern could be within the past 10 years?

That would be an accurate assessment. Thanks, I missed that parameter.

And that wasn't all expressed in last months thread on the same topic that's still active? Well really if members can not comment unless they have actually owned said equipment in the $6000 per component range of amps, preamps, and speakers, it would be a good start, but it ain't going to happen.

I must have missed that thread. Do you have the link? I would be interested in reading it.

I'm trying to stick with just amps so that limits the playing field to Amps up to $6000. It might not happen, but if it does, I will be happy. If it doesn't, so be it.

 

[BilboBaggins]

You can find good bargains on newer higher end gear. I got an $1800 Arcam DVD player for $300 and a $700 Arcam integrated for $225. The Arcam is UK made and has great sound and construction.

Agree, and what I am asking for are examples that would have cost around $6000 retail. I just pulled that number out of the air as it seemed like a good amount.

 

[stereofanboy]

.........I'm trying to stick with just amps so that limits the playing field..........[/QUOTE]

Power amps or integrated amps?

 

[blhagstrom]

I can't speak to all high end new amps but from all the big amps I've ever heard, both vintage and newer, when working properly...


they all "sound" the same.

I notice sound difference related to power. Speakers tend to respond better with big power.

Otherwise, all the "sound" comes from the pre-amp and source.

I do not get enough pre-amps to judge new versus old.

Now BJT versus JFET, I can tell. JFET seems a bit more alive.

MOSFETs Rock!

 

[musichal]

 

[mjw21a]

Not sure I'll ever own anything I that price range. My integrated tube amp was $700 shipped from China. It sounds so good after tube rolling, upgraded caps and volume pot that I can't see the need to ever spend more.

 

[nj pheonix]

This can and will be played a lot of different ways. It sure was before. If you figure in inflation and maintenance the field levels quite a bit. In the heyday ( the time when most people would've like to have a 2ch for music dedicated system , maybe early 60s to mid 80s. I certainly won't argue the timeframe) there were a lot of players vying for a big market and you could order/build or walk into any B&M shops locally. In that vein I think you had a better chance to have a better sounding system.
Fast forward to today. The masses want 7.1 and ear buds or perhaps Bluetooth speakers.
Point I'm making . The bottom always was crap. There was a much bigger middle group in the fat years with some gems. If you had and wanted to spend the money at any time the top stuff was and is excellent. While specs may be better now ( for this part of the conversation let's skip digital) in the electronics ( high end) I suspect few could discern the difference. Cart and speaker technology is world's ahead. If you're using new great inefficient speakers older amps probably wouldn't work so well. This is very far from black and white. Too many factors.

 

[Poultrygeist]

In the past, speaker designs were more art than science but with the advent of speaker modeling programs we now have the tools to build better speakers than ever before.

Today commercial designs are driven by marketing and bean counters so unless you're willing to pay the ubber high end prices, options are limited. It's not rocket science to see why so many are attracted to vintage speakers.

One option to both vintage and the commercial high end rarely discussed here is DIY. It's affordable and equipped with free programs like "Edge" DIY'ers are able to come up with designs that are unmatched at any level.

Some might think commercial companies do lots of R&D to come up with superior designs but the truth is that many are just rehashed concepts from DIY. Some of the finest audio engineers in the world are contributing members of the diyaudio community.

With DIY there are no bean counters and marketing folks to say "we need a cheaper driver or who would buy a speaker with no back?"

 

[Poultrygeist]

I've owned many vintage amps and my near mint Marantz Model 1150 is a keeper but only for nostalgic reasons. It would probably bring several hundred on the vintage market but it lacks the fidelity of the $10 TPA3116 class D amp pictured below.

 

[JoeESP9]

Blasphemy from PG! Are you trying to cause trouble?

 

[4-2-7]

Power Amps don't sound the same, if ones belief is they do, I would look at whats going on with the system, the power amps used, room and ones hearing. Also to generalize on this without specifics and naming name and just saying all amps sound the same is avoidance to any rebuttal.

I will agree that power can play a big big part in the sound within the same system and speakers. I have found that amps with more power than the speaker 95% of the time sound better. Headroom, Speed and lack of clipping all attribute to better control of the given speaker drivers, as well as the power to handle transient peaks in the music. = Sound Quality

Don't think I'v had any old Japanese gear that when adjusted for inflation cost in the area of $6000, But that was the point back in the late 60s and though the 70s. A cheap alternative to US, British and German made equipment and from the looks of it it holds true for a very large group today.

On hand today and some of my old equipment...
Sansui BA-F1
Sansui AU-717
Sansui AU-519
But I don't think gear like this fits this thread. Also all these units have taken a dump in the last two years do to age.

On hand today

McIntosh MC 2300 1970-1980 MSRP $1,700, todays used price $1,800-$2500

McIntosh MC 275 Mk VI, MSRP $5,500 (Current) used market $4,500

McIntosh MC 402 MSRP $7,000, 2004-2014?, Used market $4000-$4500

McIntosh MC 501 Mono Blocks, 2004- 2014, MSRP $8700-$1150 a Pair, Used Market $6000-$8000

To be continued as to findings

 

[4-2-7]

I disagree with the assessment that power amps (ss to SS - tubes do sound different) sound different there are subtleties to the sound not an in your face difference. It is how they work with the pre-amp and the pre-amp has more impact on signal than anything. After all, most pre-amps do boost signal going through them and also with tone controls, if you use them and how those circuits are designed and built, and then put into the amp. That is where most of the signal manipulation is done.

Again generalize comment, cool disagree bot, it really isn't what the thread is about. I have to go to work but I find otherwise with all the same system.

And for your rebuttal specifically McIntosh C100 preamp, and swapping McIntosh MC402 & MC501s. Go look those units up.

 

[telemike]

Arcam is designed in the UK but not necessarily built there.

Both mine say Made in UK (DIVA series from early 2000's)

 

[ConradH]

Which statement is true:

1) We know more about audio design and circuits in general today than we did 30 years ago.
2) We've learned nothing and know less about audio design and circuits in general than we did 30 years ago.

I agree there's some great people and designs over at diyaudio. It costs a small fortune to manufacture anything of quality in today's markets, especially if the volumes are low, but once you ditch the price constraints, or if you DIY it, nothing from the past can compete with what you can build today. The tube market might be a little different, as the number of people who really know how to wind decent transformers is limited, NOS tubes probably were better made and HV parts are harder to come by, but we can still do way better than the old circuits ever did.

 

[JoeESP9]

Which statement is true:

1) We know more about audio design and circuits in general today than we did 30 years ago.
2) We've learned nothing and know less about audio design and circuits in general than we did 30 years ago.

I agree there's some great people and designs over at diyaudio. It costs a small fortune to manufacture anything of quality in today's markets, especially if the volumes are low, but once you ditch the price constraints, or if you DIY it, nothing from the past can compete with what you can build today. The tube market might be a little different, as the number of people who really know how to wind decent transformers is limited, NOS tubes probably were better made and HV parts are harder to come by, but we can still do way better than the old circuits ever did.

More than once I've posted that it's not only ludicrous but a slap in the face to engineers and designers to believe or even suggest that there has been no advance in the field of audio since someone's favorite "whatever" was made 30+ years ago. When I post such I've been largely ignored.