Vintage VS New Phono Cartridges & Specifications

[KentTeffeteller]

Another bit of history. Audio-Technica in Japan began making inroads into the USA market by 1971, the introduction of their VM series (which they were able to USA patent). Their first US marketing was an OEM cartridge for Electro-Voice (aka the AT-10). In 1973, Audio-Technica set up their USA branch, and introduced the AT-10, and AT-11 ranges. The Shibata stylus and CD-4 Quadraphonic put Audio-Technica on the USA map.

 

[DennisK2021]

At the prices Samauri charges the cartridge should show up tested and working. I had a bad experience with him once where the cartridge wouldn't accept a stylus, obviously not tested either, and won't go back. HiFiDo is a far more reliable dealer.

I've had two purchases where the cartridge eventually dropped a channel, one a Fidelity Research FR1 Mk3F and the other an Entre EC20, both great cartridges and each purchased for about $200CDN simply to try them. All the rest including numerous Grace MM cartridges have been as expected and still work. For MC, I've picked up a couple of Goldbugs, a Medusa and an original Clement each for about $250, a virtually unused Signet Mk111E for $200, a Denon 301 MKII for $150, a Denon 103 retipped with a conical stylus and put in a walnut body similar to the Mr. Brier body, and a relatively low use Fidelity Research FR1 Mk2 to replace the Mk3F. The only new cartridge I own is an AT33PTGII. Each cartridge has it's own character and trying many cartridges has given me a far better handle on what I like and what I don't care for. I'm not looking for bragging rights nor am I willing to pay stupid money for characteristics I can't appreciate. I just want something that gives me the best I can get within the limits of my two systems. At my age, I have a bit of disposable income to play with and a finite limit on the time I have left so I see no reason not to indulge my curiosity while my ears still work well.

I generally stay in the $200 to $300CDN range and look for good headshells and wires and if possible the cartridge case included. I'm currently looking to move up a notch or two in the hierarchy, Accuphase would be great but unlikely, same for a Fidelity Research FR-7F, and I am starting to look at Supex. It takes patience but there are good deals to be had. If you can connect your computer to your stereo youtube has all kinds of videos of various cartridges so it is possible to get a feel for what they sound like before buying.


I'm still experimenting but do like SUTs. I have used MC phono stages and currently have an AD797 and an early Wyn Palmer MC phono stage, both built from this site, and a couple of variants of OPA1611/OPA627 MM stages based on the LME 4562 data sheet circuit as well as an OPA1656 stage that I've built and three SUTs, an Ortofon T3000, and Ortofon T20 and an AT-650 that I use with the MM stages. The Ortofons are fairly high gain so limited matching but the AT has 3 impedance settings so is quite flexible. The WP stage is great but so are mine with the SUTs.

The Dynavector will be shipped back today. Looks like I'm paying shipping and the price won't be refunded until they examine the cart. EBAy works better than that and a few eBay sellers seem to have knowledge.

I'm kind of in the same boat as far as enjoying my hobby while I can except I wasn't a tech and my system had been pretty low budget. I am more interested in refurbishing tube audio and trying a little DIY. I'm pleased with how my little Pilot EL84 PP came out (currently parked at a friend's house) and with my super Hersey conversion.

An original Boron cantilever would be nice but I'm passing on the East European DL 103M and buying a DL 103 retipped with a hyperelliptic tip. There is an affordable Accuphase AC2 on the Bay that needs a re-tip. I'm thinking that would make it north of 600 but a guy could get the body and, if it checked out, get the re-tip later.

 

[absolon]

a guy could get the body and, if it checked out, get the re-tip later.

Contrary to the advice most people like to give about examining old cartridges I have found a basic USB microscope, when used with appropriate sidelights, can give a useful impression about the size and balance of the wear flats on the stylus. It isn't a precision tool by any stretch but it does put you in the ballpark about the condition of the stylus on any of these odd purchases.
Good luck if you decide to pursue the Accuphase. I have an ongoing search for the brand due to comments I've read about their ability to throw a good soundstage but have yet to find one that comes in at a price I'm willing to pay. From my side of the border, the retip starts around $600 when shipping is included so I tend to look for cartridges that are not likely to need one.

 

[lini]

(...) Audio-Technica in Japan began making inroads into the USA market by 1971, the introduction of their VM series (which they were able to USA patent). (...)

Mind you, however, that AT's first V-magnet model actually was the AT-35X, introduced ~ November 1966. And the next one was the AT-VM3, introduced ~ June 1969. That's not meant to contradict your info about the market introduction in the US, though.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[flavio81]

Another bit of history. Audio-Technica in Japan began making inroads into the USA market by 1971, the introduction of their VM series (which they were able to USA patent). Their first US marketing was an OEM cartridge for Electro-Voice (aka the AT-10). In 1973, Audio-Technica set up their USA branch, and introduced the AT-10, and AT-11 ranges. The Shibata stylus and CD-4 Quadraphonic put Audio-Technica on the USA map.

I undestand first they created cartridges following Shure's (actually ELAC's) design, but patent infingement problems led them to have to change their design, thus the "V" dual-magnet was born. Example: AT-1, AT-6.

AT claimed "better channel separation" with this dual magnet ("VM") design, which isn't true in practice,
they also claimed "better tracking" which isn't true as well, you can get very low moving mass with the other MM/MI designs too.

I say this as a person who mainly owns AT cartridges, in some way they're my preferred brand, but the VM design was clearly just something to overcome patent infringements.

Long time ago, I found some brand-new AT cartridges, that appeared manufactured in the 80s or 90s, that used actually a conventional (Shure style) MM design, the stylus holder shank was similar to what Shure/Panasonic/Excel uses. I wish I had bought them! They did not use the VM principle at all.

 

[DennisK2021]

Update: Finally convinced Samurai that the Dynavector was dead. They refunded the full price and told me I could keep it or throw it away. I cancelled the Denon DL103 after I realized the really low compliance would be hard to deal with. By the time I added enough weight to the head shell, I would have had to add more balance weight. I ordered the DL103M which has a compliance of 13 and a boron cantilever. It's coming from Slovakia so not here yet. That cart is the most expensive I've bought, by a factor of 2, so I hope I like it

Good luck if you decide to pursue the Accuphase. I have an ongoing search for the brand due to comments I've read about their ability to throw a good soundstage but have yet to find one that comes in at a price I'm willing to pay. From my side of the border, the retip starts around $600 when shipping is included so I tend to look for cartridges that are not likely to need one.

I'm seeing the same thing. The AC-2 for re-tiping is tempting if I sent it to Japan, but still likely $700+. Repair in the US is almost twice as much. I had the dead Dynavector boxed up to send out for a full re-build but decided that, despite an initial zero investment, the end price would be kind of high for an unknown piece. As far as Accuphase goes, there is an AC-1 on the Bay at a better price point than the AC-2s. Those are supposed to be pretty close. But, for now, I'm happy with the MC20 and hope to get better sound with the DL103M.

For future upgrades, I think if I stay vintage, an Accuphase may be next but it's likely to cost as much as good current offerings like the Ortofon MC X30/40.

 

[absolon]

For future upgrades....

I'm of the mind to stick with vintage as well, at least for now. I just ran across a very good deal on an obscure Audio Craft AC-01 after winning a lowball bid.
Very sparse information on it but it does appear to have good specs so I'm expecting good imaging. AC-01

 

[revox-b77]

Audio Craft AC-01

Interesting,
Specs claim it has a replicable stylus.

 

[absolon]

a replicable stylus.

I think that may be a mistranslation. I understand it has a boron/hardened aluminum composite cantilever and some sort of line contact stylus and was priced at the same level as the Fidelity Research FR-7F so I am expecting a decent cartridge and from all appearances, it isn't replaceable.

 

[DennisK2021]

I'm of the mind to stick with vintage as well, at least for now. I just ran across a very good deal on an obscure Audio Craft AC-01 after winning a lowball bid.View attachment 3811910
Very sparse information on it but it does appear to have good specs so I'm expecting good imaging. AC-01

How does that sound? I'm beginning to question the vintage route. The Denon DL 103M showed up today. It would not track any record. I'm guessing that is a symptom of a worn tip? It's repackaged to go back.

 

[absolon]

How does that sound?

It's not here yet but is on the road and tracked. I had the shipment held a couple of days waiting for a couple of headshells I also purchased so I could consolidate the shipments and save shipping costs. I'll advise when I've had a chance to try it.
I'm sorry to hear the Denon didn't work well and hope you can refund it easily. Could be a hardened bushing or perhaps a stylus problem but unless the seller suggests untested, one would expect it would at least play. I try to buy carefully and so far I've had quite good luck with my purchases but there are definitely some risks.

 

[DennisK2021]

It's not here yet but is on the road and tracked. I had the shipment held a couple of days waiting for a couple of headshells I also purchased so I could consolidate the shipments and save shipping costs. I'll advise when I've had a chance to try it.
I'm sorry to hear the Denon didn't work well and hope you can refund it easily. Could be a hardened bushing or perhaps a stylus problem but unless the seller suggests untested, one would expect it would at least play. I try to buy carefully and so far I've had quite good luck with my purchases but there are definitely some risks.

I've had a couple of issues in the past, easily sorted. In both cases the seller had obviously not tested by playing a record. The 1st had a dead channel. I sent the seller pictures of the resistance of each channel. The Samurai cart was more annoying. They asked for me to try it in a different head shell. I pointed out that both channels showed open with a DMV and they processed the return.

With the Denon, the seller insists he always tests everything he sells but I think he might be a bad actor. He has been insisting that I pay return shipping unless I can demonstrate the problem with a video. I think he will just say it's the record not the cartridge. I am now getting some odd emails that make me suspicious. I have faith eBay will handle it, but do you think skipping on every record, unable to play anything, is an unusual problem? Hard to judge the sound with just a part of a passage coming through intermittently. Going back to my MC20 on the same arm had no problems. If my turntable guy can magnify the tip, I'll run it by him. Also thinking of a USB scope but have never looked into them.

MM carts are easier.

 

[ripblade]

That's too bad about the 103M. Hopefully it's resolved in your favour.

If one wishes to dabble in used cartridges a good optical microscope is essential. It's the only way to know the true condition of the stylus. It has saved me on more than one occasion.

 

[DennisK2021]

That's too bad about the 103M. Hopefully it's resolved in your favour.

If one wishes to dabble in used cartridges a good optical microscope is essential. It's the only way to know the true condition of the stylus. It has saved me on more than one occasion.

Do you have a recommendation? How affordable?

The one thing I realized last night is that maybe the vertical tracking angle is the problem. VE's data base does not list VTAs. An on-line search tells me the cart should be parallel with the platter which is how the SME tonearm is set up. VE also does not have a good image of the cart. The pics below are a different DL 103M for sale on the Bay and, below that, my best shot at a close up of the one I received. To me, they look different.

 

[JP]

Yours looks like an alu cantilver was put on, and the stylus is at the wrong angle. I’d return it.

 

[ripblade]

I agree with JP...it looks as though the cantilever has been replaced. Mine looks like the web photo.

There's an excellent thread on building a microscope in the TT stickies above. What it costs depends on how resourceful one is. I've read of people who've built them using old student scopes they bought for next to nothing and added the needed ocular lenses and lighting which is not that expensive.

 

[absolon]

How does that sound?

The Audiocraft AC-01 got here in good working condition and I've been trying it with various records to get a feel for it. It is very resolving and has a real sense of air and great imaging, a pleasure to listen to. I'll give it more time to get to know it better but for now, I am very pleased.
It was apparently designed by Yoshio Matsudira, who was responsible for the Entre cartridges and also designed for Accuphase, Zyx, Koetsu, Supex, Air Tight and is currently operating as MySonic Labs. It seems to have a low mass cantilever, quite short relative to others in my collection.

 

[DennisK2021]

Yours looks like an alu cantilver was put on, and the stylus is at the wrong angle. I’d return it.

I agree with JP...it looks as though the cantilever has been replaced. Mine looks like the web photo.

There's an excellent thread on building a microscope in the TT stickies above. What it costs depends on how resourceful one is. I've read of people who've built them using old student scopes they bought for next to nothing and added the needed ocular lenses and lighting which is not that expensive.

The seller was a bad actor. Claimed he could not get a return label printed where he lived, etc. EBay put a hold on the return request until today. Today I have a full refund from eBay. Nothing said about returning the cartridge. I think eBay, in order to make good on their guarantee, took the loss. The seller may be banned but I'm betting he re-enters the market with a different name, etc.

It looks like I now have 3 non-working cartridges, two from eBay purchases, one from Samurai. One is an ADC with one dead channel, one is the Samurai Dynavector that is completely dead (oddly the same thing is showing on their web site---did they have 2 and send me an untested one?) and now a Denon that may be a good candidate for a new cantilever and tip. Does anybody know anything about Orbay? (Record Stylus) Does make me nervous that the prices say "from xxx".