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Vinyl making me grumpy.....

ScooterMcTav

ScooterMcTav

I know less than I think
Good amp? Check.
Good TT? Check.
Good preamp? Check.
Good cartridge? Check.

Good sound? Well, I can't tell you that.

After investing some scratch in a decent MC cartridge, I have to say that a surprising amount of my vinyl collection is disappointing me.

Certainly some dics sound just fantastic - the best vinyl I've ever heard in a system I own. Great sound saturation across the board, full competent bass, crisp highs, and lovely mids. This is mostly with new pressings that I have been the sole owner of.

However, older discs are all over the place. Some have zero bottom end (Deeper Purple), some get bloaty on the bottom (the Doors), some are way mid pushed (Bat Out of Hell). I would have thought it might be a setup or connection issue if the symptoms had been consistent. However, we're all over the place.

I am guessing that as the quality of the gear improves, it highlights the differences between good and poor recordings, good and poor pressings, and good and poorly worn LPs. I am also guessing that if I do not like the sound of any LP which is "crappy", then I need to listen to it on a less revealing system.

It is a bit unfortunate, as when I pop in a CD, I can hear what my system is capable of. Then when I put on an LP (or even look at buying a used LP) it seems to be a bit of a crap shoot.

Although I love the detail of CDs, I also appreciate the smooth nature of vinyl, and enjoy it for extended listening sessions. However, vinyl takes space, requires care, and is more expensive than other forms of media we can choose.

Is my experience typical? Is anyone else experiencing this frustration with vinyl? Any suggestions on how you have dealt with this?
 
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Yes I have many bad vinyl pressings and some that sound great, I replace bad vinyl, ones I really like with CD's. I believe in the 70s they would recycle vinyl with the labels. Grind it up and make new records. Some of my LP's from that era sound very bad.
 
You are not alone in your experience. Some systems are just more forgiving for the imperfections we know vinyl will have. Don't have to give up on vinyl.
There is some way you can tweak your system I'm sure. We all enjoy our vinyl, no matter what system we listen with.
What phono pre are you using, just curious.

Just as a note, some old pressings I buy second hand, if they don't really sound right, I assume they are just worn out. For example, I had to buy three copies of
The Cars CandyO before I could get some decent sound from the first track side one "Lets Go". This song got the most play probably, maybe on some system with a worn out needle, who knows. If copies are cheap, keep looking.
 
^ Yup.
I've decided to just roll with it. I've got some records that sound a lot better on my lowliest table. Carts that sould work here, don't, and sound better over there, where they should be a mismatch. I've tried several different SUT's. phonostages and integrateds to get a particular table to quit humming, only to find it sounded fine when I disconnected the ground. I just hooked up a Rek O Kut that idles like a cement truck, but is luscious when it's playing. I dunno, I just roll with it.
 
Don't fret, CDs will do the same thing. Some CDs I have are outstanding, some are simply horrid. I figure that's built into those CDs, where a few of my old albums sound horrid because they were played with a worn out needle (we didn't call it a stylus back then) ran with plenty of extra tracking force added so the record wouldn't skip while we were running through the house.
 
There are good masterings and pressings of nearly all records. If it is something you particularly like, then you need to find out what issues are good and get those.

Now you understand why vinyl listeners pay a lot of money for certain pressings.
 
ScooterMcTav said:
Good amp? Check.
Good TT? Check.
Good preamp? Check.
Good cartridge? Check.

Good sound? Well, I can't tell you that.

After investing some scratch in a decent MC cartridge, I have to say that a surprising amount of my vinyl collection is disappointing me.

Certainly some dics sound just fantastic - the best vinyl I've ever heard in a system I own. Great sound saturation across the board, full competent bass, crisp highs, and lovely mids. This is mostly with new pressings that I have been the sole owner of.

However, older discs are all over the place. Some have zero bottom end (Deeper Purple), some get bloaty on the bottom (the Doors), some are way mid pushed (Bat Out of Hell). I would have thought it might be a setup or connection issue if the symptoms had been consistent. However, we're all over the place.

I am guessing that as the quality of the gear improves, it highlights the differences between good and poor recordings, good and poor pressings, and good and poorly worn LPs. I am also guessing that if I do not like the sound of any LP which is "crappy", then I need to listen to it on a less revealing system.

It is a bit unfortunate, as when I pop in a CD, I can hear what my system is capable of. Then when I put on an LP (or even look at buying a used LP) it seems to be a bit of a crap shoot.

Although I love the detail of CDs, I also appreciate the smooth nature of vinyl, and enjoy it for extended listening sessions. However, vinyl takes space, requires care, and is more expensive than other forms of media we can choose.

Is my experience typical? Is anyone else experiencing this frustration with vinyl? Any suggestions on how you have dealt with this?
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I got frustrated with vinyl when I was a kid, before digital was even an option. I just keep a few test LP's on hand for my own purposes now. When "old favorite" vinyl records come my way from people dusting off old collections, I digitize the vinyl, restore it and, sometimes, remaster it to stereo if the original recording is in mono. I can make the stuff sound exactly the way I want, smooth as silk.

The great thing is that I get to keep copies of everything for myself.
 
I suppose the better your system, the more unforgiving it sounds on older and poorly recorded stuff.
One thing I notice with my Miles Davis collection. Some sounds better, some worse. Mostly to my DIY upgrades I have done during the past year.
These LP's have been played by me for more than 50 years and I know every tick/pop/skip.
I recently restarted my Miles cycle and are hearing on some LP's things I never heard before. Like a portion of reverb that is now more apparent and longer and a cleaner cymbal I never heard before along with way more bite from trumpets..
My biggest upgrade has been modifying my 50 year old Pickering/Stanton 380 Stanton Fluxvalve needle(gold rooster head with .0007 mil tip) to fit in my Stanton 681EEE cartridge.
Although the sound overall has improved on many, the "Miles At Carnegie Hall" sounds even worse. Still holding my opinion on "Sketches".
 
Thanks guys, glad to hear it's not just me. Though it sure get disappointing when you (finally) find a copy of Houses of the Holy, and it passes visual inspection, then it sounds like someone cleaned it with a brillo pad.

Balifly, I almost spit my coffee onto the keyboard when I read your post.

fred, I'm using a ProJect Phono Box II - when I compared it head to head with the phono pre in both a Rotel and a Sony ES integrated I had, it won convincingly, despite its modest price tag. And again, clean, good vinyl sounds sublime. I'm just disappointed at how bad some other vinyl sounds.

Todd, you make me think I should try the Denon cartridge on my Lab 80 Mk II; mine does idle a little smoother than a cement mixer......mind you, I could also try it on my Dual 1249.

Jefferey, I've gotten to the point where I've become a bit gun-shy of a lot of modern recordings as well. Certainly some CDs with huge dynamic compression sound like garbage - that being said, at least the garbage is a bit more consistent than I'm finding with vinyl. And yes, I remember the days when we bought needles too. In fact, as I was a poor kid, I often found myself using dried old pine needles to get some sort of sound out of my little red and white suitcase player.

At my current point, I don't have a ton of LPs I'd like to add to my collection. Possibly I'd be better off IDing my LPs I'd like to upgrade, and then only buy new or sealed vinyl. When I listen to pressings like Cash IV and Wasting Light, they reinforce what I love about vinyl.
 
OK, so my reference to the tip of the 380 rooster head needle is redundant by me writing that it is also a mil. dimension.
Sorry to all the correctors in this group.
 
Yep, sounds about right for me too. I am investing in my Vinyl portion of my system and I hope I find myself using it. I just got a new higher end phono pre on BT and I think that is the end of my spending for some time thank you. Delve into the vinyl side of it and maybe a new cleaner so I know for sure I am doing the best I can with said album.
 
Man I must be deaf because I can't think of too many records that disappointed me in 40+ years of spinning them. I listen to my Deep Purple lps and there is no lack of bass. Just played "Lazy" and the low end shakes the livingroom

I use a Ortofon MC20 Super II at this time which is a LOMC. I don't have any fancy SUT, just the preamp section of my Perreaux SA3

The only cartridge that I have heard that I did not like at all was a Denon 301, all carts sound different that is for sure
 
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Northwinds said:
Man I must be deaf because I can't think of too many records that disappointed me in 40+ years of spinning them. I listen to my Deep Purple lps and there is no lack of bass. Just played "Lazy" and the low end shakes the livingroom

I use a Ortofon MC20 Super II at this time which is a LOMC. I don't have any fancy SUT, just the preamp section of my Perreaux SA3

The only cartridge that I have heard that I did not like at all was a Denon 301, all carts sound different that is for sure
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My rather tattered copy of Machine Head sounds much better with plenty of bass. In fact the one lovely looking copy of Deepest Purple is the outlier in how it sounds. Just frustrating to drop $10 on a VG copy and then have it sound so garbagey.

hi*ball said:
Just curious if you have anything set up for cleaning your records?

That makes a HUGE difference.
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I wet clean any vinyl that is new to me with two different brushes plus cleaning solution. I had possibly overlooked that the record needs the "Dawn washing" treatment.
 
onepixel said:
I love the sound of most of my records. Maybe you're more accustomed to CDs.
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Possibly you have better pressings or better condition records than I do? My good ones are pretty good, but it's the number of bad-good in my recent acquisitions that I find more bothersome.

Maybe I should also mention that it is not as if all my records sound bad. My upgrades have made my good records sound better; it's unfortunately made my poor records sound poorer.
 
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ScooterMcTav said:
Good amp? Check.
Good TT? Check.
Good preamp? Check.
Good cartridge? Check.

Good sound? Well, I can't tell you that.

After investing some scratch in a decent MC cartridge, I have to say that a surprising amount of my vinyl collection is disappointing me.

Certainly some dics sound just fantastic - the best vinyl I've ever heard in a system I own. Great sound saturation across the board, full competent bass, crisp highs, and lovely mids. This is mostly with new pressings that I have been the sole owner of.

However, older discs are all over the place. Some have zero bottom end (Deeper Purple), some get bloaty on the bottom (the Doors), some are way mid pushed (Bat Out of Hell). I would have thought it might be a setup or connection issue if the symptoms had been consistent. However, we're all over the place.

I am guessing that as the quality of the gear improves, it highlights the differences between good and poor recordings, good and poor pressings, and good and poorly worn LPs. I am also guessing that if I do not like the sound of any LP which is "crappy", then I need to listen to it on a less revealing system.

It is a bit unfortunate, as when I pop in a CD, I can hear what my system is capable of. Then when I put on an LP (or even look at buying a used LP) it seems to be a bit of a crap shoot.

Although I love the detail of CDs, I also appreciate the smooth nature of vinyl, and enjoy it for extended listening sessions. However, vinyl takes space, requires care, and is more expensive than other forms of media we can choose.

Is my experience typical? Is anyone else experiencing this frustration with vinyl? Any suggestions on how you have dealt with this?
Click to expand...

Moving coils can bring this out like this. Bad recordings and pressing sound really bad and great ones sound well, really great. They really emphasize the extremes.

I heard that Jolida 302 integrated with an Ortofon Bronze and was really not impressed. I can't recall the phono stage right now but I know from having a Jolida 502CRC that the preamp section is really just average and it really needs good NOS12AX7's to sound good. When I play my 502C I usually bypass the preamp and play only the power amp section and I have it souped up a bit.

I think you should try the Luxman as recommended.

What phono stage are you using? that is also important with moving coil. The Denon's seem to really like an SUT into a high quality MM stage.
 
ScooterMcTav said:
Possibly you have better pressings or better condition records than I do? My good ones are pretty good, but it's the number of bad-good in my recent acquisitions that I find more bothersome.
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98% of my records are original pressings. Some date back to the 1950s and earlier. They vary in condition, but most sound amazing. There are some turkeys in there.

As for new acquisitions/pressings, the percentage of bad records seem much higher. I returned Norah Jones - Day Break. Blue Note, LP 2016. At first I thought it was my system. But after listening to both vinyl and digital download, I determined it was the recording/mastering. It has some sibilance, distortion and sounds bland over-all. You'd figure Blue Note would have higher standards. Her album The Fall, 2009 also has distortion on a couple of tracks. WTF

Overall the new releases/pressings I've purchased in the last 5 years sound comparatively bland. I think it may be from the "sound wars" and how the preference for mass marketed digital sound has started to be become the standard. Some bands/music and even some audio gear have headed in that direction, by emphasizing to much unbalanced bass, less crisp top-end and no juicy mids. Just my opinion.
 
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