Was Sansui BA-2000 cut from different cloth?

[Kreshna]

Based on look and model number, it seems Sansui BA-2000 is the lowest end model of the BA-x000 series, with BA-5000 on top, BA-3000 in the middle, and BA-2000 at the lowest rung. However, things may not quite that simple.

First, the reviews and opinions. I have read positive opinion on Sansui BA-2000, where the amp is described as "very smooth" and "has a holographic sound" --exactly what I expect from what so-called "Sansui sound", because my AU-7900 is also very smooth and has holographic sound stage.

The BA-3000, despite being more powerful, doesn't get as much as favorable opinions. For example, it's described as "standard rapidly built crap" and "has issues of its own". I also remember reading somewhere that Sansui BA-3000 is just a cheaper, afterthought version of BA-5000, which doesn't sound nearly as good.

Then, the generation. Both Sansui BA-5000 and BA-3000 were produced in 1975-1977 period, while the BA-2000 in 1977-1979 period, thus giving me the impression that the BA-2000 belongs to a different generation and (probably) different design, instead of merely being a lower-powered version of BA-5000 and BA-3000.

And last, Sansui BA-2000 has different input sensitivity than both BA-3000 and BA-5000. The BA-5000 and BA-3000 has 0.7 volt input sensitivity --similar to the power amp section of the AU-xx00 integrated amps (like AU-7900). The BA-2000, on the other hand, has 1 volt input sensitivity, which may indicate that the amplifier belongs to a (probably slightly) different design. Also, the lower input sensitivity of the BA-2000 (the lower the voltage number is, the higher the input sensitivity is, am I correct? Thus, 0.4 volt is a higher input sensitivity than 2 volt, am I correct) may indicate a good thing, because according to this article, higher input sensitivity means lower noise figure.


So, is Sansui BA-2000 a better-sounding amplifier than BA-3000, despite its lower power? Has anyone listened to both amplifiers and compared them?

 

[smurfer77]

I haven't owned or worked on those 3 power amps you mention but I do own an AU-9900 and AU-9900A, which I believe is the integrated version of the BA-2000. Before buying those I read that some people prefer it over the AU-11000 (higher power version of AU-9900 (but my AU-9900/A put out similar power on my bench!) and AU-20000 (integrated version of the CA-30000/BA-3000 if I'm not mistaken). I doubt there is much wrong with the bigger models, but people do seem to think the BOTL (BA-2000/AU-9900) sound particularly yummy. I tend to agree that the AU-9900 is special, but haven't heard the bigger units for comparison.

The thing is that time after time folks assume TOTL is the best unit but you have to think from a corporate point of view. Sometimes they just through in more power or more controls and it doesn't always sound better in the end depending on what happened along the way to the final product. Classic example is AU-555A which is one of the best sounding in it's line. Then step down to the AU-505 and some actually think it is even better than the wonderful AU-555A (it's a close call IMO). Then look at the AU-666/AU-888 vs the TOTL AU-999. The stock AU-999 has anemic bass to the point of being faulty from the factory, but you still hear people swearing it's the best thing since sliced bread. (to be fair I think it's a great unit and I sold all of mine, but want to get another and do the tone mods to correct the bass - the potential is there). Likewise for many of the low powered receivers. I've not owned one but you hear people say the AU-6600 is the one to get from that line up. Some of the line-ups have similar sound through the series just with different power and control, others sound quite different through the series... TOTL is definitely not always best for me. But it's a fun journey figuring it out... and with the vintage stuff you don't lose too much money if you resell

 

[sregor]

The BA-3000, despite being more powerful, doesn't get as much as favorable opinions. For example, it's described as "standard rapidly built crap" and "has issues of its own". I also remember reading somewhere that Sansui BA-3000 is just a cheaper, afterthought version of BA-5000, which doesn't sound nearly as good.

The thread quoted is about the NB-300, not the BA-3000. IHMO Construction and design of the BA-3000 is at least equal to ,the BA2000.
Also, the gain is about the same, which is why the sensitivities are different...(requires more input for more output.)

 

[Kreshna]

The thread quoted is about the NB-300, not the BA-3000. IHMO Construction and design of the BA-3000 is at least equal to ,the BA2000

D'oh! My bad. But the second statement that says "has issues on its own" applies to BA-3000.

I haven't owned or worked on those 3 power amps you mention but I do own an AU-9900 and AU-9900A, which I believe is the integrated version of the BA-2000. Before buying those I read that some people prefer it over the AU-11000 (higher power version of AU-9900 (but my AU-9900/A put out similar power on my bench!) and AU-20000 (integrated version of the CA-30000/BA-3000 if I'm not mistaken). I doubt there is much wrong with the bigger models, but people do seem to think the BOTL (BA-2000/AU-9900) sound particularly yummy. I tend to agree that the AU-9900 is special, but haven't heard the bigger units for comparison.

Wait.

Yes, Sansui AU series is quite popular among vintage enthusiasts in my country, and some people I know prefer the lower powered AU-9900 to AU-11000.

The thing is that time after time folks assume TOTL is the best unit but you have to think from a corporate point of view. Sometimes they just through in more power or more controls and it doesn't always sound better in the end depending on what happened along the way to the final product. Classic example is AU-555A which is one of the best sounding in it's line. Then step down to the AU-505 and some actually think it is even better than the wonderful AU-555A (it's a close call IMO). Then look at the AU-666/AU-888 vs the TOTL AU-999. The stock AU-999 has anemic bass to the point of being faulty from the factory, but you still hear people swearing it's the best thing since sliced bread. (to be fair I think it's a great unit and I sold all of mine, but want to get another and do the tone mods to correct the bass - the potential is there). Likewise for many of the low powered receivers. I've not owned one but you hear people say the AU-6600 is the one to get from that line up. Some of the line-ups have similar sound through the series just with different power and control, others sound quite different through the series... TOTL is definitely not always best for me. But it's a fun journey figuring it out... and with the vintage stuff you don't lose too much money if you resell

In theory, BA-3000 should provide better bass control due to its higher damping factor, but I wonder if BA-2000 is better-sounding, sweeter-sounding amp.

 

[smurfer77]

In theory, BA-3000 should provide better bass control due to its higher damping factor, but I wonder if BA-2000 is better-sounding, sweeter-sounding amp.

Maybe, but who is to say better woofer control will sound better to someone who wants thumping bass or a wooly bottom end. And there could be other changes affecting the tone/response beyond damping factor. What should be better on paper doesn't always translate in practice. Just look at the old AU-777 - one of the best sounding units in terms of bass, but with old fashioned cap coupled outputs and damping factor that barely makes it into double digits...

Anyway, back to the original point again, while I've not heard the BA models it doesn't surprise me that a lower models is sometimes preferred over higher models. We've seen it again and again in the Sansui line-up. But hey, I'm sure many folks love therei BA-3000 and 5000 etc too. I suspect, from an engineering point of view, they are cut from a similar cloth though, even if they sound a bit different

 

[nj pheonix]

I have a recently restored AU 20000
While i wouldn't be surprised if a 9900 or an 11000 sounded as good. I'd be surprised if it were bettered in sound quality.
Also if anyone lives in my area with one I'm open to them coming to listen to mine and would be happy to visit to hear theirs.
Edit
Ps
The bean counters must of sh*t for this one. I very experienced tech who worked on it said the build quality and design was excellent.
( he tends to rebuild lots of monster Marantz pieces. I think he has reasonable perspective)

 

[smurfer77]

I have a recently restored AU 20000
While i wouldn't be surprised if a 9900 or an 11000 sounded as good. I'd be surprised if it were bettered in sound quality.
Also if anyone lives in my area with one I'm open to them coming to listen to mine and would be happy to visit to hear theirs

That's the AK spirit. A proud owner standing behind their gear, but open to a little fair comparison! Wish I was in the area to bring my AU-9900 over and take you up on that fun offer.

 

[bimasta]

Hate to be a buzzkill and it's just one man's opinion. I had a BA-2000 many years ago, but never its bigger siblings. I was thrilled to get it and had very high hopes for it. But I was disappointed. Maybe the amps I already had were better and it couldn't take the comparison, but I found it flat and dull, not in the audiophile sense of "neutral" — just blah. It was in perfect condition externally (and it's a gorgeous looking piece), so I presume internally as well, though perhaps some components had drifted way out of spec. I auctioned it you-know-where. I got a very good price, and this was before the market demand for vintage amps, and Sansui especially, had really taken off.

I got two emails after the auction, one from the buyer thanking me — he loved it. I was really happy to hear that.

Oddly, the other message was from someone who'd only been watching the auction. He wrote, "Congratulations on the price you got. It's a crappy amp."

So make that two men's opinions. Still, while specs may be technically objective, sound quality is totally subjective and depends on personal preferences and musical tastes. For some it may be nirvana.

 

[Kreshna]

Maybe, but who is to say better woofer control will sound better to someone who wants thumping bass or a wooly bottom end. And there could be other changes affecting the tone/response beyond damping factor. What should be better on paper doesn't always translate in practice. Just look at the old AU-777 - one of the best sounding units in terms of bass, but with old fashioned cap coupled outputs and damping factor that barely makes it into double digits...

Indeed. Some sensitive drivers may react badly to overdamping, ie no bass.

Anyway, back to the original point again, while I've not heard the BA models it doesn't surprise me that a lower models is sometimes preferred over higher models. We've seen it again and again in the Sansui line-up.

I see!

I'm not saying BA-3000 is a bad amp. I merely wonder if BA-2000 is actually a better-sounding amp (doesn't mean BA-3000 sounds bad), probably because it belongs to a slightly different generation, different design, etc.

 

[Overundr1]

Having just restored a BA-2000 will offer my thoughts. Absolutely a technicians dream to work on, all parts other than cosmetic items still available and easily upgraded if you have the skills. Dead quiet with no input, driving it with a AU-9900a (think CA-2000) is most rewarding. Would I like a 3000 or 5000, sure, do I need that kind of output, nope and happy to trade off for a amp designed to be serviced.
I am able to drive the AU9900a (or) the ba-2000 into the same jbl 4311's and the sound is almost exactly the same, with a very slight nod given to the BA for lowest octave results, which may be due more to the amount of gain presented i.e. I can drive the pre-amp section harder and dial down the outputs of the ba. That is until you start to approach ear bleed volumes but we would never do that of course.

 

[Kreshna]

Having just restored a BA-2000 will offer my thoughts. Absolutely a technicians dream to work on, all parts other than cosmetic items still available and easily upgraded if you have the skills. Dead quiet with no input, driving it with a AU-9900a (think CA-2000) is most rewarding. Would I like a 3000 or 5000, sure, do I need that kind of output, nope and happy to trade off for a amp designed to be serviced.
I am able to drive the AU9900a (or) the ba-2000 into the same jbl 4311's and the sound is almost exactly the same, with a very slight nod given to the BA for lowest octave results, which may be due more to the amount of gain presented i.e. I can drive the pre-amp section harder and dial down the outputs of the ba. That is until you start to approach ear bleed volumes but we would never do that of course.

I see, thanks for sharing. I also heard that AU-9900 is the best sounding Sansui among the AU-xx00 series --even better than the higher powered AU-11000 and AU-20000.

 

[rjb5191]

Having just restored a BA-2000 will offer my thoughts. Absolutely a technicians dream to work on, all parts other than cosmetic items still available and easily upgraded if you have the skills. Dead quiet with no input, driving it with a AU-9900a (think CA-2000) is most rewarding. Would I like a 3000 or 5000, sure, do I need that kind of output, nope and happy to trade off for a amp designed to be serviced.
I am able to drive the AU9900a (or) the ba-2000 into the same jbl 4311's and the sound is almost exactly the same, with a very slight nod given to the BA for lowest octave results, which may be due more to the amount of gain presented i.e. I can drive the pre-amp section harder and dial down the outputs of the ba. That is until you start to approach ear bleed volumes but we would never do that of course.

Would you mind sharing what you feel is upgradeable and what might improve the sound? I know that's subjective but I'm interested in your opinion.

 

[nj pheonix]

Perhaps related (or not?)
I had an AU20k a while back. Beautiful unit.
It was one of those pieces I wanted to love but didn't.
I guess I'd say it sounded very good, just not great.
Splitting it , that is, using only PA section. I thought it was special (which muddies the topic some. Me thinking a 20k is roughly a CA3000, BA3000 in one. I might have that wrong. Please feel free to correct).
Being how I liked the amp section (a 3000?)
In any event , I haven't had the privilege of hearing all the CA , .CA, AU variants I can't make any definitive comments.
The fact that they're well sought and commanding IMO top dollar compared to comparable gear of their time, leads me to believe they are all well designed and executed units.
Upgrading likely not needed. That isn't to say at this point they require maintenance to be up to spec.
Few techs are sharper than the engineers who designed.
There might be better components available now to achieve that end

 

[rjb5191]

I guess I'll also share some of my experiences with my all original ba-2000 although I have not compared it to any of the other Sansui's mentioned here. My opinion is that this amp is a very fine amp at least compared to some of the other amps I've spent time with (70's kenwood integrated - not good, Late 80's Harmon Kardon integrated - a little nicer than the Kenwood, bang and olfuson full system with Cd player - this is nice in a unique way, Audire model 2m - a little bright and harsh, pass labs Aleph 0s - probably the next best but it just doesn't have the same drive punch and authority as the ba-2000 while the ba has all the sweetness that those class A SE amps are suposed to be known for). I also usually listen at moderate volumes and my ba-2000 is rarely operating over 1 watt which should keep it mostly in class A. With my tubes4hifi premium build sp14 tube preamp, I get plenty of those musicians in the room moments. I think the ba-2000 is fairly sensitive to the preamp driving it so garbage in will equal garbage out. I'd say that regardless of the preamp, the amp is slightly warm and relaxed in a solid state way while still possessing authority and punch. I don't think that its super detailed or explosively punchy so maybe some would call it dull. I think its very balanced, pleasing, engaging, and not fatiguing. I'd call it vintage sounding in the best of ways. It sucks me in a romantic way and I just don't want to get off my arse so I just keep listening. Although my experience is limited, I'd venture to call this a top notch amp. I'm planning on building a tube amplifier soon; I'm leaning toward an Audio Note Kits El84 or EL34 push pull amp which are supposed be very nice so I'll hopefully have a tube reference to compare it to in the near future.

 

[quiet]

Thanks for your observations. Very nice write up. Hope you stick around.
Good luck with the tubes and Merry Christmas.